Bobby Drake: Iceman Appreciation 2022

[Nicoclaws]

Tha Fiorelli look is reaaaally cool. Love how he managed to make a cohesive team look while still making them diverse.

Who was the artist who made a super cool looking Emma team with half-naked Bobby in it ? It's kind of the same vibe. But I actually think I dig the yellow.

[PolarIceFire]

No doubt, on all accounts. When I get back into drawing myself [soon, is the plan, in the fall, is the hope], I'm thinkin' 'bout using it as a reference design wise, in combination w/some of Dauterman's HfG, broken ice pcs. aesthetic.

Can't say for sure, as I don't readily recall anything of that nature, but will do some searchin' in a bit to see if I can find out.

[NewMutant]

The fact that you didn't include Vecchio is SHA-DY !

I'd say, in order, Vecchio, Liu, Lobdell and Carey. Grace was fine too.
I don't think I ever read Nicieza. Austen and the writer before him (cannot remember) during Morrison's era were just bland or worse.

And I put Lobdell in the top three SOLELY because nostalgia and Madureira art.

Had he included Shade/Darkveil I would have included him. JK (though I wish he did)

Haha. I would include him. I always think of him as an artist first and while he talented I don't live it for non teen books. (Get him drawing the Academy X STAT)!

[PolarIceFire]

SORRY, y'all, guess it wasn't meant to be:

... This is a GREAT idea, so hopefully it's not a one-off.

ICEMAN, and... his 2 new developments, the West Coast crash & smash pad + burgeoning *eco* warrior *activism*... will we be seeing those eXplored & eXpanded upon, in the near future, on X-Men and/or elsewhere? Also, any new love prospects on deck, given his current hankering for old-fashioned romance? For instance... [see HAVOK's thread]

THANK YOU, and I realize... this is A LOT, for/from just 1 fan, and will understand if it has to be reduced or not even picked/used at all. But I *had to try*...

this time, or ever, who knows @ this point.

Re. today's...AIPT XMA: X Me Anything! ?'s

[PolarIceFire]

Meh, just I like real life I don't have a problem with comic characters' sexuality being messy and complicated.

In a world where characters don't stay dead, come from a next time and dimension, can take over take over the body of another person and make it their own I'm not going to worry about the logic of if that character can be gay, bi, lesbian, etc...

That said if you are going to explore a character's sexuality write a good story don't just use it for shock value.

I also agree that existing LGBT characters should be used and developed more.

This, 'cause...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queerbaiting

Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBT representation. They do so to attract ("bait") a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers. ...

is a thing, needs to be avoided... and called out. Which I think is what some were/are trying to say, in a roundabout way.

The X-Office is very biphobic, Iceman should have been bisexual, Rictor was bisexual until they make him 100% gay...

100% agreed on Iceman although I think it still would've received the same amount of backlash.

The bulk of the fans don't even see...

Just storing these here for easy access, as I want to address them at a later point, in Bobby's own app thread. ...

Not now, but will address all this ASAP, along with the promised RT read & review of Vecchio's Infinity mini.

But THIS...

https://aiptcomics.com/2022/08/08/x-...ordan-d-white/...

... I’m going to take the opportunity to just do this right here. People who are mad about Iceman’s stats — I based them on the old ones, but yeah, I’m the one who okayed them. And what I’ll say about that is there’s no stat for cold generation. If there was, he would have an omega level stat. There’s also no stat for the slowing of molecules. I don’t tend to think of the thing about his power that makes him an omega as being energy projection, which I believe is the stat that’s on there. Like, that’s not what Iceman is about, but maybe that’s just me. And it’s not like it’s 100% my decision. There’s a whole handbook crew that generates stats for these characters. So it’s not like I just make things up. I check and I double check.

The one thing that me and Lauren go over is we usually have a decent conversation about the characters’ weight, because some of them were kind of egregiously low. So we’ve been trying to nudge them into more realistic realms. ...

took me by surprise, 'cause I didn't even know it was being made an issue by fans. As said a few pgs. back:

... I like that they're ALL [Bobby, Lorna, & Shiro] in that SAME RANGE 2GETHER!!!

I was pretty OK with it, and JDW's reasoning for it, more or less. For one, it gives him [and them, Polaris & Sunfire] room to grow AND have what I'll call *peak* feats, wherein they can have "in the moment" specialty *spikes* when necessary for that WOW factor. Plus, as I've said before, each of them [and I'm assuming Havok will be the same] already have to be *reined in* somewhat, just to be on teams. In short, they're already kinda OP as it is, and I'm not sure I care to ever even see any of them at say... PhoeniX levels, or somethin'. I like them as being powerful but not too powerful, giving them the opportunity to do incredible things they usually don't on occasion, as I think it's better for story reasons. Also, NGL... it keeps them all vaguely in that *wunderkind* role that's been their stock & trade, more often than not. It's how they were introduced [and likely will be again... elsewhere], with both creators & fans growing accustomed to it, given the perpetual nature of their lengthy comics history. So, developmental maturation will probably always be incremental at best, but that's customary. They were the babies, and may be again [elsewhere], but became the proverbial "middle children"... forever.

As far as the weight thing goes, I did notice they increased Lorna's from 115 [?, I think] lbs. to 129, but not Bobby's. I wouldn't mind them packin' on some muscle & beefin' him up to 155-60, also, from the seemingly too slender 145 they left him at.

[PolarIceFire]

https://twitter.com/mistajonz/status...10315033776128

!CHRiS! Jones ✪ Drawing My Childhood
@mistajonz

✨Someone said "draw X-Men the Animated Series Iceman with your #xmen97 stuff, so I did✨

LUV the ICE FX!!

[Mirai]

Finally read Iceman infinite comic today, i feared it would be bad, but it was in fact really good. Some people were complaining that Bobby is kissing too many guys... Well folks, that's true for most of the gays of today !
The only "weird" thing was seeing Bobby with facial hair and hair chest . (the artist seems to like his mens hairy, like Kris Anka).
I wouldnt mind seeing the rest of his solo adventure in the future !

[Krakoa]

I'm in the minority but I really liked vol 1 of Marauders. I even felt it was the flagship team till the X-Men debut; it's my hope that Iceman carrying over into Duggan's will only enhance/spotlight Iceman on a major team again. While I don't think Marauders cast was evenly showcased; I felt Duggan continued Sina Grace's solo run - growing his relationship Christian/friendship with Kate, Iceman is responsible for the new Reavers of the Krakoan era (a badass Wolverine move from the Claremont era), not to mention terraforming Sol/Mars. In terms of character beats it seems to me Duggan used him decently, but it would have been nice to have seen few fleshed out scenes.

Speaking of... who are your favorite Iceman writers?

Only a few come to mind...

Scott Lobdell
Fabian Nicieza
Marjorie Liu
Sina Grace

And Duggan would probably be the 5th.

Claremont, Morrison, and Hickman didn't really use him.

Definitely Lobdell and Liu. Nicezia is probably a tier below that -- he didn't do much with Bobby except in X-Men Forever, but I think what he did there was important. I also really like Grace's contributions to the character in his first volume. I like what Vecchio did with him as well. I appreciate Bendis for pulling the trigger on Bobby coming out. I think Simonson and DeMatteis both did a few things that laid the groundwork for what became Bobby's core characterization, especially with his family, but I don't know that they really were top Bobby writers for me.

Also, he wasn't a long-term Bobby writer but the scene between the two Bobbys in Extermination #5 by Ed Brisson is a favorite.

[PolarIceFire]

Wanted to preserve this here for what I think are... obvious reasons:

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

As well as the following, for its associated, OT relevancy:

That's what *often* happens when a closeted gay person comes out. And he's far from being the most flamboyant and stereotypical.

not sure I agree I know ppl who have come out and it definitely varies person to person but the ppl I know that have come out that was not how it went......under Sina Grace I would argue he was up there jmo.

I'd rather generalizations such as this be avoided. And I agree that some of what Grace wrote may have a been fine for a gay Iceman, but I'm *not sure it fit Bobby Drake's* personal coming out eXperience [the way I imagine(d) it, anyway], and there's a difference.

Finally read Iceman infinite comic today, i feared it would be bad, but it was in fact really good. Some people were complaining that Bobby is kissing too many guys... Well folks, that's true for most of the gays of today !
The only "weird" thing was seeing Bobby with facial hair and hair chest . (the artist seems to like his mens hairy, like Kris Anka).
I wouldnt mind seeing the rest of his solo adventure in the future !

This was encouraging to read, and I hope to find out myself if not tonight, definitely over the weekend.

[BobbysWorld]

Happened to be rereading the Emma Frost solo series from the early 2000s, and came across this page which in hindsight made me laugh. Since the story is set back when the Frost siblings were all younger, it lines up with when the original X-Men debuted. This page had Christian watching the news when it showed their first public sighting:

Capture.jpg

Which makes it the literal first time he ever saw Bobby, with no idea hey someday I'm gonna date that guy. We're gonna bang after his father's funeral and bond over our shared daddy issues and everything!

Also:

Capture2.jpg

Mere coincidence that it just HAPPENS to be Bobby that's centered on Christian's screen? I say he knew all the way back then which one of these strange new X-Men had his attention.....

(I mean, obviously not really. He was very much not in a good headspace at the time, lol. Just amused me in the context of the relationship they ended up in a full twenty years after this page was published.)

[Krakoa]

Happened to be rereading the Emma Frost solo series from the early 2000s, and came across this page which in hindsight made me laugh. Since the story is set back when the Frost siblings were all younger, it lines up with when the original X-Men debuted. This page had Christian watching the news when it showed their first public sighting:

Capture.jpg

Which makes it the literal first time he ever saw Bobby, with no idea hey someday I'm gonna date that guy. We're gonna bang after his father's funeral and bond over our shared daddy issues and everything!

Also:

Capture2.jpg

Mere coincidence that it just HAPPENS to be Bobby that's centered on Christian's screen? I say he knew all the way back then which one of these strange new X-Men had his attention.....

(I mean, obviously not really. He was very much not in a good headspace at the time, lol. Just amused me in the context of the relationship they ended up in a full twenty years after this page was published.)

Bobby's centered in quite a pose there too LMAO

[PolarIceFire]

So, I managed to make it thru Infinity ish 1, IDK... like almost 2 wks. ago. And NGL, it was a bit of a slog, as I'm still... just not feelin' it. Overall, I found it too conventional, and simplistic. The art completely takes me out of it [w/those HUGE eyebrows & forehead], 'cause all I can see is baby Bobby, from the time displaced 05. He looks like a boy, instead of a man. There were other things also, didn't care for him just lettin' that dude he rescued to start mackin' on him. Wished he would've been more like, "Whoa there, big guy, nothin' personal but... naw, that's not cool." Just sayin', if he were a female character, that would've been a no-no. But I guess reverse double standards can & do... apply? Bringin' back an aged-up but still overwhelmingly cheese-tastic Romeo, didn't do this fan any favors, either. Can't believe that would ever be any sort of crowd-pleaser, I mean, who was askin' for it... eXactly?

TLDR, I'm in no rush to read the remaining 3 issues, but will... I guess, at some point, as soon as I can muster the will to do so. On the positive side, adding to my 2 likes of his crash pad & eco activism, is that him admitting that he & Christian did NOT... amount to anything serious, and are just FWB, basically. It wasn't meant to be, and Bobby can do better than Emma with a [smaller] penis.

And quickly, on making him biseXual instead of gay, I hafta admit this has X'd my mind A LOT... and still does now, from time 2 time. But that would've been like having your cake & eating it, too, was said... for a double entendre win. So, weighing the pros & cons, I've personally come to the conclusion... that I'm glad they pulled the trigger, and went all in. It was the ballsier, braver, more meaningful thing to do, and they were right in making the commitment... total, and not shy away, to take the "safer" route. Good on you, Marvel, may've not [all that much] liked the way ya went about it... but solid props, anyway.

[NewMutant]

So, I managed to make it thru Infinity ish 1, IDK... like almost 2 wks. ago. And NGL, it was a bit of a slog, as I'm still... just not feelin' it. Overall, I found it too conventional, and simplistic. The art completely takes me out of it [w/those HUGE eyebrows & forehead], 'cause all I can see is baby Bobby, from the time displaced 05. He looks like a boy, instead of a man. There were other things also, didn't care for him just lettin' that dude he rescued to start mackin' on him. Wished he would've been more like, "Whoa there, big guy, nothin' personal but... naw, that's not cool." Just sayin', if he were a female character, that would've been a no-no. But I guess reverse double standards can & do... apply? Bringin' back an aged-up but still overwhelmingly cheese-tastic Romeo, didn't do this fan any favors, either. Can't believe that would ever be any sort of crowd-pleaser, I mean, who was askin' for it... eXactly?

TLDR, I'm in no rush to read the remaining 3 issues, but will... I guess, at some point, as soon as I can muster the will to do so. On the positive side, adding to my 2 likes of his crash pad & eco activism, is that him admitting that he & Christian did NOT... amount to anything serious, and are just FWB, basically. It wasn't meant to be, and Bobby can do better than Emma with a [smaller] penis.

And quickly, on making him biseXual instead of gay, I hafta admit this has X'd my mind A LOT... and still does now, from time 2 time. But that would've been like having your cake & eating it, too, was said... for a double entendre win. So, weighing the pros & cons, I've personally come to the conclusion... that I'm glad they pulled the trigger, and went all in. It was the ballsier, braver, more meaningful thing to do, and they were right in making the commitment... total, and not shy away, to take the "safer" route. Good on you, Marvel, may've not [all that much] liked the way ya went about it... but solid props, anyway.

I share some of your issues with Infinity. The art is too childish looking for me; get LV on an Academy X book STAT. His writing was a bit cliche; I (too) have no need for Romeo to return, but as you keep reading (if you do) he does tie a lot of Iceman's history together to get a fairly sold continuity and expanding. Some of it is cliche but it's fun overall if you are an Iceman fan; and provides a nice transition from Marauders to the Hellfire Gala/X-Men. I really enjoyed the swipe down style and thought LV's art was creative in using that format at time. There is more Christian Frost if you are fan (I am!). There is a Marvel Holiday Infinity one shot that takes place prior to this by LV as well.

[Exodus]

the image from the recent X-Men Monday must be one of my favorite Iceman images in a long time. WOW!

https://aiptcomics.com/2022/08/29/x-...e-new-mutants/

so dynamic like a figure skater...honestly, how on earth can this character not yet be a MCU movie sensation?!

[Fokken]

the image from the recent X-Men Monday must be one of my favorite Iceman images in a long time. WOW!

https://aiptcomics.com/2022/08/29/x-...e-new-mutants/

so dynamic like a figure skater...honestly, how on earth can this character not yet be a MCU movie sensation?!

I was thinking the same thing. Its beautiful! I'm really looking forward to seeing him in consistent action moving forward on the X-Men proper.