Bobby Drake: Iceman Appreciation 2022

[Wiccan615]

I get all of that, I even agree with almost all of what you said. But for me, some of that is also way too close to those people arguing that 2 + 2 doesn't necessary equal 4, that maybe it's 3 or 5, literally waging war on objective reality. People are certain things, characters are certain things. Not everything is mutable. We don't just rewrite reality because of people's feelings.

I'm not sure why I typed Lev, I intended Lorna. That was a deep-cut brain fart. And the last thing I wanted to do is offend anybody, be they marginalized or not. If I hurt anybody's feelings I apologize.

I don't blame the fans on either side of the divide. Ideally, I would wish so many people wouldn't have gotten so invested in trying to make a fictional, actually-straight person gay. That Marvel would have flat out said Iceman was straight instead of trying to play to both sides for so long that it became some massive thing. I can think of several TV shows that have done the same thing, but most of them generally quickly dialed it back or manage to go off the air before having to deal with the fallout from fans. Marvel somehow did the dance for twenty years. It's ridiculous they managed to sustain it for so long.

That’s cool that there are parts you feel similar about, and don’t get me wrong, I understand the opposing side too. It is what it is, and I don’t think either our intentions are bad, people tend to be very passionate about the characters they love.

Narratives and themes, and how readers engage with them are not math problems and neither you or I have the authority to dictate the correct way to engage with that. Fiction doesn’t exist in a vacuum. People do not consume stories, themes and characters as value neutral agents; but as emotional beings who have various ways of engaging with these concepts. Bobby was objectively straight but the possibilities of how his narrative exists and the possibilities within how that can be developed, to many readers is not fixed.

We are also talking about comics here. Magneto was objectively not a Holocaust survivor for a decade plus. Gambit was objectively not in the Mutant Massacre. Jean was not objectively supposed to be alive in stasis during the Phoenix saga. Moira was objectively not a mutant. I could go on and on. These “rules” about what constitutes right and wrong or “correct facts” based on what the reader is consuming at that given moment; does not consider the fact that stories can be engaged with and interacted with via multiple perspectives. Even what is featured in the canon can be interpreted differently within the context of the canon. Some might interpret Storm’s love for gardening as something she picked up while in Kenya, others may interpret as something she does in the Mansion to remind her of home. It’s an objective fact of the character that can carry multiple meanings and possibilities. There is no one right. Objective reality can vary based on context and yes, feelings can play a role whether people like it or not. A character who is objectively straight can objectively come out as gay later in life just like people in the real world objectively do. It may not be what it was and that’s true but to say that it ends there is not actually representative of both how people engage with fiction and develop in the real world.

I guess it’s valid that you feel that way, I for one, couldn’t be happier and I’m glad they engaged with something marginalized fans felt for so long. To me, that’s rare and meaningful. It’s not going to be for everyone, but that’s reality.

[maxhilary]

I certainly didn't expect a Bobby thread in 2022 to still be having this conversation. It's been almost 7 years now, and I'm so tired of this. The man is gay, that's the objective reality, seeing as objectivity is considered so important here and feelings aren't. People in real life come out at any age and any circumstance. In 2021 alone we have seen someone who was on The Bachelorette and then become the Bachelor, shows completely about dating the opposite sex, come out as gay in his late 20s. Someone who literally went on an international television show about dating multiple women at the same time, just to somehow make himself straight because he was that conflicted about his sexuality. To the point that he nearly killed himself because of it. There are people with grandchildren by the time they come out. ANY character can come out as queer and there doesn't have to be justification for it, because that does reflect actual reality. There are people I know personally who came out much later, and I had absolutely no idea despite being gay myself. And as a teen, I was absolutely convinced that I wanted to marry the actress Hilary Duff, and made whole plans about it. Because that's the complicated journey that most queer people face, it's not as simple as figuring everything out as a teen. And yet, imo there's no male character in either Marvel or DC who fit the coming out a bit later story better than Bobby does, as already mentioned in this thread. His prior stories and characterization fit so well with that, regardless of how many females exes he has, none of whom were anywhere close to some kind of longterm iconic romance like Scott/Jean or Rogue/Gambit. There were lots of people here on cbr who found the Kitty romance to come out of nowhere and mentioned how they historically didn't even know each other that well, and this is years before Bendis wrote him. Calling a fictional character coming out a retcon is like saying an IRL person coming out is contradictory. It's not, it's the reality of the queer experience and hiding yourself or being in denial and trying to be straight is an intrinsic part of that.

I pretty much expected that knee-jerk reaction. I'm going to use the TV show Supernatural as something of an analogue.

For anyone who doesn't know it was a show about two(straight) brothers who go around hunting monsters and helping people. It had two distinct audiences, the larger TV audience which was mostly male and saw the characters as written and depicted, and the online fandom which was smaller and mostly female who saw the characters as gay and secretly lovers. Each group saw themselves as the main and true fans. Both groups tried to treat the other as if they didn't exist and tried to invalidate the other group's view of things. The show struggled to do things to play to both audiences while still staying true to who the characters actually were and generally did a good job with it in some really cleaver and innovative ways(the school play was probably the biggest and best example).

Marvel did something similar with Iceman for a long time, not because they didn't want him to come out as gay, but because making an actually-straight character gay was going to be reality-breaking for many fans, perhaps most fans, regardless of whether they liked him as gay or straight. Personally, I have enjoyed him as both, I just don't believe 'the retcon'. You see people reading around the orientation-change, or reading around the character. Iceman fandom use to be predominately straight with a significant amount of LGBTQ and a LOT of women. Iceman was one of those comic book characters that had a large female fanbase, one that shipped him with a LOT of female characters. Now the remaining organized fanbase is almost entirely LGBTQ and mostly gay men at that.

Yes, Iceman still has fans wanting to see him in books, but many of them are reading around the orientation change. It's a pocket of unreality they try not to look too closely at. You see them even here on the X-boards at CBR, which was practically the home of the Iceman-is-secretly-gay theory. They post mostly in the other appreciation threads, still shipping him with Laynia, Lev, Opal, Emma, Angelica, Kitty...

They broke the reality of the character, that's the problem, and all these years later the fandom has never recovered from that. Instead of anyone acknowledging that, everyone now just sits in their respective camps waiting to rabidly defend their positions while spewing vitriol at the other.

Wiccan615 has already deftly addressed the "lost his popularity angle", the facts don't support that claim at all. If anything, he's more popular now if not the same as before.

Also, do you have a source for the male fans of Supernatural vs the female ones? Because while it's likely true that at first there were more male fans, I disagree about this being the case throughout its long run. It spent almost all of its years on the CW which historically has been a far more female skewed network and certainly was in the 2000s until the DC shows started and began evening out the demos. And by then the large female demo of Supernatural was already well documented and commented on by media outlets.

Also, it's true that many characters in media are thought of or speculated as queer and never become canon, but the majority of these are in the context of shipping and romance with each other. Bobby has always been a unique example in this regard, because while he did have some moderately popular m/m ships like him and Northstar, most of the speculation about him was centered on his identity and the themes in his story, rather than a ship.

[Journey]

Wow Bobby's thread is popping? I'm shocked.

[PolarIceFire]

And we've only just begun, Journey! Recent activity will ultimately serve to strengthen our resolve and make us more determined, I'm sure of it!! Bobby Drake's going places in 2022, and we're going to help get him there, because that's what he and his besties deserve!!!

[Journey]

Yeah Bobby's not on the vote so IDK where TF he's going at this point.

[scourge]

Yeah Bobby's not on the vote so IDK where TF he's going at this point.

Supposedly he's getting one of those Infinite comics this year but that hasn't been confirmed yet or not.

[jwatson]

I still want Bobby to show up in X-men Red. *crossing fingers.* Really enjoying reading this thread too i have always enjoyed bobby but wouldn't call myself a fan, fan but it's nice seeing him get some consistent love.

As far as his popularity i do think it has dwindled but it's with straight writers who may feel now they don't know how to approach the character than the actual overall fans. And that is a huge problem, how many straight writers at marvel actually put any gay characters on their team. It is falling into the same problem a lot of black characters experience but if you want to be a writer you need to be able to explore things outside of yourself especially in a world of fiction.

[Krakoa]

Yeah Bobby's not on the vote so IDK where TF he's going at this point.

He could still be on Red, but if not he might have a spot on the new X-Men team -- the whole team is changing, not just the elected spot.

[PolarIceFire]

I would love to tell a story that fixes that, heals that, but I have no idea how to do it.

Well then:



Because that's exactly what we're going to be getting at. As I feel I might have figured out the issue, that's led to any perceived division and subsequent, defensive posturing. Better yet, I think somebody else has too, who just happens to be in a much better position to *actually* do something about it. That's where we'll start, soon. And rest assured, it'll likely be a messy WIP, that we'll have to learn to grin and bear some. Compromise will inevitably be required on everybody's part, if we're ever going to arrive at a reasonable, reliable consensus, on how to best *move forward*.

In the meantime, another *great* Iceman moment, from the Aug. 2020 Empyre tie-in:

X-Men #11

[Factor]

I'll be surprised if Iceman isn't part of X-men Red's cast. Marauders seemed to hint he was going to be on Mars.

[scourge]

Because that's exactly what we're going to be getting at. As I feel I might have figured out the issue, that's led to any perceived division and subsequent, defensive posturing. Better yet, I think somebody else has too, who just happens to be in a much better position to *actually* do something about it. That's where we'll start, soon. And rest assured, it'll likely be a messy WIP, that we'll have to learn to grin and bear some. Compromise will inevitably be required on everybody's part, if we're ever going to arrive at a reasonable, reliable consensus, on how to best *move forward*.

I'm sorry but what? Compromise? There's no need for compromise or healing anything. Bobby Drake is gay. If someone stopped being a fan because of that, oh well. There's no need to compromise or heal with those types of "fans".

That was a great Iceman moment in the tie-in though.

[PolarIceFire]

I'm of the mind Bobby being allowed to be openly gay isn't, was, or ever will be, a detriment in any way, to realizing the character's true, full potential. On the contrary in fact, not only am I convinced that it was enriched exponentially, but also became much more likely as a result. How it was done and been largely handled since, though, has certainly left some things to be desired. And I think therein lies a lot of the crux that led to any early, knee-jerk reaction, which sadly persists all these years later, it still seems.

[PolarIceFire]

BOBBYsworld, I'm so mad at you, this is all your fault! ;D
I hope you're happy, and more appreciative of Duggan, because that darn guy's gone and done the unthinkable. With Marauders #27, which I thought was great BTW, Gerry's got me doing what's feeling like a complete 180 on Christian and Bobby. Yes, I finally *felt* their potentially *cool* dynamic, for the first time ever (it seems). I told you I was going to remain openminded, and after that issue, I'm really into whatever the X-office is cooking up between them. In fact, it's given me all kinds of ideas, even including incorporating *them* into my soon-to-be legendary trio in more ways than 1: PolarIce2FrostFire 8D
Will what once was only 3, Lorna, Bobby, and Shiro, become *5* with a + of Chris AND *Emma*?! 8O
I don't know, but my senses are tingling, and I'm starting to get *really into* the idea of what it could all turn into.

Send the ones that fight Thor!
We *are* the ones that fight Thor!





DUGGAN, dammit, that man's crazy like a FOX!
This issue was perfection, an instant all-time fave.
He's dragging me kicking & screaming into digging
THESE 2: ICEman + chrisFROST!! 8P

[PolarIceFire]

X-Men's *cold* soldiers:

Iceman
Christian & Emma Frost
Northstar & Polaris

Just saying, beyond the obvious motif, this messy, more than cool group could easily write itself.

[PolarIceFire]

Just got another like for this tweet about Bobby & Chris in Marauders 27:



From the G-man himself, DUGGAN!

Which is GREAT because I'm loving where he's got Iceman right now and am so EXCITED to see where it goes!! Bobby's such a stud.

And you know, this development with him "flexing" his powers and testing his limits, then the art... it's giving me real ANIME feels!



And I LIKE IT!!