Wonder Woman in the DCEU

[Primal Slayer]

Oof, this thread went off the rails.

As it always does sadly. The variety of conversation for some is very little.

[Gaius]

I think there's a valid discussion to be had in whether no representation is better or worse than bad representation.
Sadly it's true, if Diana didn't get bad representation (any given Justice League appearance, animation, DC vs. Vampires, DCeased, Injustice, the upcoming Suicide Squad game), we wouldn't see her much outside her own comic period.

That sucks, and it's a bigger issue than power levels.

I suppose it goes back to stuff like how being on the JL or in the "Trinity" with Superman and Batman certainly give the appearance, she's important. Just that most of her time on the JL isn't good (in most mediums) and most writers are only interested in using WW for token female representation or Clark and Bruce's foil (whether as arm candy or for them to morally flex on her).

It's why her time on the JLD pretty much mops the floor with her entire history on the actual league.

[Perseus]

I suppose it goes back to stuff like how being on the JL or in the "Trinity" with Superman and Batman certainly give the appearance, she's important. Just that most of her time on the JL isn't good (in most mediums) and most writers are only interested in using WW for token female representation or Clark and Bruce's foil (whether as arm candy or for them to morally flex on her).

It's why her time on the JLD pretty much mops the floor with her entire history on the actual league.

Its like her origins, truth vs perception. Perception - Diana is a "demigoddess", child of Zeus and Hippolyta, of course she's powerful and wouldn't be overlooked. Truth - yeah sometimes she doesn't do anything, gets jobbed around, has constant recons to her history, and etc

[WonderLight789]

Oof, this thread went off the rails.

For my money...power levels are relevant to a character's appeal. For me, one of the appeals of Wonder Woman is that she's an upper-echelon powerhouse which enables her to engage in grand, epic-scale stories. Same way I like the absurd power levels of Dragon Ball.
But it's asinine to treat them as the end all, be all of everything. The absolute last thing I care about is whether nerds on battle forums think one fictional character can beat the other fictional character. All that does is remove context and reduce everything to mere stats, which is an utterly joyless way to approach a story.

For me, the more important thing in regard to Diana's power levels is the function they serve in the narrative.
For comparison, look at pro-wrestling. We all know wrestling is fake and wins/losses don't really mean anything. But they can offer an insight in how management and the guys making decisions behind the scenes see the performers.

If one wrestler loses a match, but only because the bad guy cheated, or after a long, evenly matched fight that could've gone either way...that's a sign management sees value in the wrestler and has long-term plans. If you like that wrestler, you can expect good things for them.
If another wrestler loses clean as a sheet in less than two minutes, that's a pretty good sign management has no plans for this person and their career is going nowhere. And if you like that wrestler, you're screwed.

Taking it back to Diana's powers, I'm more concerned with how their portrayal serves the story.
For instance, in the recent issue of DC vs. Vampires, Diana's Lasso of Truth conveniently doesn't work the way it's supposed, allowing Hal to turn her into a vampire. What purpose does this serve in the narrative? It's to get her the hell out of the way because Batman and Green Arrow are the real heroes of this story. That's a lame story and waste of my time.

Compare that to a comic where Diana is defeated or overpowered in battle, but it's about how she rebounds and deals with it. We've seen her get her ass kicked by Genocide, Cheetah, Ares, and other villains, but the whole point of those stories is she overcomes. That's the point of heroic fiction. The hero struggles, endures setbacks, and prevails.
Meanwhile, we've also seen her get her ass kicked by Doomsday and Mongul, and the point of those stories was Superman is saves the day. She's just a prop, and I don't like when Wonder Woman is reduced to a prop.

Which brings me back to the DCEU. Even though WW84 and Justice League (both versions, and as far as Diana's concerned, they're the same) have gotten conflated together in this thread, I think comparing the two illustrates my point.

WW84 tells a story of Diana gradually losing her powers, causing her to struggle against foes she ordinarily wouldn't have trouble against. It's not what I would've preferred, but that's what we got. The important thing, in my opinion, was it was Diana's struggle. How she deals with it and overcomes it.

Whereas, in Justice League, we see a Diana who's presumably at full power and arguably accomplishes more impressive feats...but all in service of a story built around how Superman is the most important hero in the world. For all the flash and brutality Snyder gives her, she's narratively useless. The best she can do is stall Steppenwolf long enough for the real heroes to save the day with nothing but the pittance of a kill-shot that only comes after the villain is already effectively defeated.
And, yes, this absolutely applies to the other heroes who were also rendered superfluous by Superman...except arguably Flash who had to time travel everyone back to life because, losers that they are, they initially failed to stop Steppenwolf in time for Superman to save their sorry asses.

For all its faults, WW84 at least treats Wonder Woman like she matters and can make a difference. That's worth more to me than how much she can bench-press.

Which brings me back to my original post here. Although I mentioned the prospect of Diana jobbing, when I said I fear poor showings, I meant more than mere win/loss record.
Flash's movie is apparently going to be based on Flashpoint. Does that mean, if Gal Gadot makes an appearance, we're in for then genocidal tyrant Wonder Woman? We're presumably going to get some kind of "bad future" and I dread what that might mean for Diana beyond mere jobbing.

Flashpoint in general is such a garbage story that does no one involved any favors.

Hopefully, if she appears in the next Shazam, it'll be something more akin to Dr. Strange showing up in Thor: Ragnarok where she pops for one scene, does something cool, and then goes on her merry way.
But I don't trust Warner/DC who, for some reason, feel this need to establish that in order for one hero to do something, other heroes must be rendered useless. See the Nu52 animated movies and how the League was jobbed out in virtually every one of them to understand what I mean by that.

I think there's a valid discussion to be had in whether no representation is better or worse than bad representation.
Sadly it's true, if Diana didn't get bad representation (any given Justice League appearance, animation, DC vs. Vampires, DCeased, Injustice, the upcoming Suicide Squad game), we wouldn't see her much outside her own comic period.

That sucks, and it's a bigger issue than power levels.

I think we all agree that power levels are not the only issue. But it is a common denominator that most bad portrayals of WW are related to her being treated as useless jobber to make somebody else shine. Which is why i prefer not exposure if the only exposure is going to be bad portrayal. Injustice, dceased, jl movie, dcau, new 52 sm/ww and new 52 movies, flashpoint, wagner trinity etc. They all show a WW that is a failure at almost everything she attempts. And has to be saved by the real hero and powerhouses. I do not want a tyrant ww. And i do not want a nerfed jobber WW either. And more often than not. Her bad portrsyal of power comes with bad personality portrayal. Nothing good comes out of appearances where she is a tyrant and a bitch. And nothing good comes out of appearances where she is a weaklink. So between bad exposure and 0 exposure. I think 0 is better.

[phonogram12]

As it always does sadly. The variety of conversation for some is very little.

You said it.

[Rightoya]

That wasn't the question being asked. We were discussing whether people liked Diana in Justice League.

The best in that regard i have heard, was that Wonder Woman was not as bad as the rest of the movie, which to me truly don't sounds like a good archivement if the movie is not well liked at all.

I was going to stay out because this whole "jobbing" thing is exhausting but just because a character isnt as strong as you want them to be doesnt mean that everything about them on screen is terrible.

I am still trying to think of anything particularly good about DCEU Justice League Wonder Woman, but the only thing i can think of is that Gal Gadot was still a surprisingly good choice, what else was there in that movie?

If someone wants WW to be absent because she is "jobbed" then guess what? We wouldnt be having WW in anything that isn't a comic and that is not getting her anywhere. Ok, I'm done and out out of this annoying conversation again.

If there is for some reason a magical rule that Wonder Woman must be a jobber outside of the comics, maybe WB should try to find other companies who are better suited at making non comic Wonder Woman media, Marvel also didn't started with their own movies after all.

[Primal Slayer]

Depends on which version your talking about.

Marvel never was tied to a company like DC has been. There's a reason why Marvel sold the film rights to their characters to separate studios and lost access to them, they didnt do it just because. Do you think WB is going to give away their prized positions to another company to make and only get a portion of the profit?

[BiteTheBullet]

As it always does sadly. The variety of conversation for some is very little.

Wow, condescend much?

You know, to some, Diana is as much about her powers as is her character. If they don't properly respect her powers, then myself and others can't see how they respect Diana as a character!

Let's go to the obvious example in the media, the curb stomping she and the other 'Super buddies' got at the hand of Superman, and their ineffectiveness against Steppenwolf. I know that most would not think that she or the others had a good showing in this movie. This movie gets shown on a consistent basis on TNT or TBS it seems every other weekend, so it is getting plenty of play for people to see how disrespectful DCEU is of her powerset. Of course I am only talking about Diana here, we know the rest of the 'Super buddies' got their asses kicked as well.

How many here think that Diana should be able to take on, one on one, any of the Furies as well as any of Darkseids subordinates? She should need help of the entire JL if they properly used them against Darkseid, but she should be able to handle one on one anyone else.

We shall see how they treat her in any other movies in which she is not the main character. But truth be told, she wasn't exactly a powerhouse in her second solo movie.

[Stanlos]

Does the rock have so much power that he can force WB to make his character the most powerful? Because i'm sure if they don't want BA to be the most powerful in DCEU, he won't be. If WW is a jobber in flash or shazam. It's just going to be typical DC and WB. I have no reason to believe she will be treated with respect. DCEU WW has been a pretty underwhelming character power wise in all appearances.

You know that is exactly what is coming.

[phonogram12]

Wow, condescend much?

You know, to some, Diana is as much about her powers as is her character. If they don't properly respect her powers, then myself and others can't see how they respect Diana as a character!

Let's go to the obvious example in the media, the curb stomping she and the other 'Super buddies' got at the hand of Superman, and their ineffectiveness against Steppenwolf. I know that most would not think that she or the others had a good showing in this movie. This movie gets shown on a consistent basis on TNT or TBS it seems every other weekend, so it is getting plenty of play for people to see how disrespectful DCEU is of her powerset. Of course I am only talking about Diana here, we know the rest of the 'Super buddies' got their asses kicked as well.

How many here think that Diana should be able to take on, one on one, any of the Furies as well as any of Darkseids subordinates? She should need help of the entire JL if they properly used them against Darkseid, but she should be able to handle one on one anyone else.

We shall see how they treat her in any other movies in which she is not the main character. But truth be told, she wasn't exactly a powerhouse in her second solo movie.

Since they seem to be getting rid of most (if not all) of Snyder's stuff, this'll probably go along with it considering in both versions of JL she didn't do particularly well.

Fingers crossed, anyway.

[WonderLight789]

You know that is exactly what is coming.

How could i know that? I'm not familiar with the rock's power to influence movies. How do we know that he will have power to force actors, directors and the studio to make everything go his way?

[Alpha]

Wow, condescend much?

You know, to some, Diana is as much about her powers as is her character. If they don't properly respect her powers, then myself and others can't see how they respect Diana as a character!

He didn't say anything inaccurate. There are a few posters here that literally only post about one topic, their huge dismay at the state of Wonder Woman in 2021 based on their unfulfilled desires for how strong she should be. These few members have no interest in discussing how Historia is reinventing the Greek Pantheon and feminist themes of the amazons, or how Blue Snowman has been reinvented and presented as a fun new character in various DC universe specials, or how the group of writers have been coordinating grand storytelling and worldbuilding of the various amazon tribes across these new spin offs culminating in a big new event, or how Yara Flor has been a solid success and her book is still giving some love to Cassie Donna and Artemis, or how the Holliday Girls have been brought back, or all these new cool new companions Diana has like Ratatosk, Siegfried and Deadman, or how she has her first Video game and instead of using the sword they are using the lasso as the iconic tool should always be.

And you should understand why most people don't come to this forum just to read these words "Wonder Woman is a weakling and would be better off not having any movies, comics, shows or games". Most people come here to discuss the fascinating things happening and that happened over the decades. When was the last time some here told you to stop comolaining about powers? Most of the time we let it these members complain all they want without bothering them, but they still bring no other value to the community.

[BiteTheBullet]

He didn't say anything inaccurate. There are a few posters here that literally only post about one topic, their huge dismay at the state of Wonder Woman in 2021 based on their unfulfilled desires for how strong she should be. These few members have no interest in discussing how Historia is reinventing the Greek Pantheon and feminist themes of the amazons, or how Blue Snowman has been reinvented and presented as a fun new character in various DC universe specials, or how the group of writers have been coordinating grand storytelling and worldbuilding of the various amazon tribes across these new spin offs culminating in a big new event, or how Yara Flor has been a solid success and her book is still giving some love to Cassie Donna and Artemis, or how the Holliday Girls have been brought back, or all these new cool new companions Diana has like Ratatosk, Siegfried and Deadman, or how she has her first Video game and instead of using the sword they are using the lasso as the iconic tool should always be.

And you should understand why most people don't come to this forum just to read these words "Wonder Woman is a weakling and would be better off not having any movies, comics, shows or games". Most people come here to discuss the fascinating things happening and that happened over the decades. When was the last time some here told you to stop comolaining about powers? Most of the time we let it these members complain all they want without bothering them, but they still bring no other value to the community.

Yes, fascinating.

Let me know when spidey level Wonder Woman isn't to your liking anymore.

And yes, it was very condescending.

[Alpha]

I understand that you can't enjoy Wonder Woman content unless she lifts a giant mountain or punches Darkseid in the face, but don't be surprised when people that enjoy literally everything else there is to like about the giant Wonderverse grow frustated by these constant sh*tposts.

I hope one day DC publishes a comic or movie or show or game that satisfies you, but until then, please remember that DC editors probably don't care about what you write here, and your time would be better used if you messaged them on twitter instead.

[I'm a Fish]

I hope the Flash doesn’t have Flashpoint Wonder Woman in it. Or at least, not for the reason she and the Atlanteans fight each other in the comic.