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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Steph killing isn't what would make her the most hated character. It's her getting Batman to agree that killing is justified which would to that. Her being the character who gets Batman to renounce his 'one rule' would make her as likeable as King Joffery. Jason works because he's a foil for Batman, another road Batman could go down but doesn't. If Under the Red Hood ended with Batman telling Jason 'you're right' and shooting the Joker, it would be the most hated Batman story of all time and Jason would be the most hated Batman character.
    Oh, I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

    I still think that War Games seemed much more logical in setting Steph up for a redemption story rather than a death.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Steph killing isn't what would make her the most hated character. It's her getting Batman to agree that killing is justified which would to that. Her being the character who gets Batman to renounce his 'one rule' would make her as likeable as King Joffery. Jason works because he's a foil for Batman, another road Batman could go down but doesn't. If Under the Red Hood ended with Batman telling Jason 'you're right' and shooting the Joker, it would be the most hated Batman story of all time and Jason would be the most hated Batman character.
    Yes, I stated that poorly. I didn't really mean that killing was okay for Batman. But more that he would recognize that everyone else is not him. And then saying what he thinks Steph wants to hear as she dies. But I'll stick with the rest of it because I actually don't have an issue with killing a murderer to stop them from killing. But hey, that's just me.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    Yes, I stated that poorly. I didn't really mean that killing was okay for Batman. But more that he would recognize that everyone else is not him. And then saying what he thinks Steph wants to hear as she dies. But I'll stick with the rest of it because I actually don't have an issue with killing a murderer to stop them from killing. But hey, that's just me.
    That gets a bit into territory currently being covered in another thread. I personally think it's complicated, but I think Steph has internalized the no-kill rule pretty well, though they did decide to write that story for her twice - first in the Final Night Robin story, then in Detective Comics 796.

    Ah, well.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That gets a bit into territory currently being covered in another thread. I personally think it's complicated, but I think Steph has internalized the no-kill rule pretty well, though they did decide to write that story for her twice - first in the Final Night Robin story, then in Detective Comics 796.

    Ah, well.
    I agree with you that Steph was trying to internalize Batman's edicts. Steph realizing that Batman is not always correct would have been the epiphany of the story. I know. I just committed a sacrilege by claiming Batman can be wrong. But Batman can only be an interesting character if one accepts that he can sometimes, not only make mistakes based on lack of or poor information, but also because he can make a poor judgment. And so he would have been learning this lesson in a way from Steph whether she lived or died (I agree that outcome seemed rather arbitrary to the story). I brought it up because it seemed to fit with the concept that was being discussed about Steph bringing an outside perspective to the Batworld. Pure supposition on the part of a raving lunatic. Me. LOL Sorry.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    I agree with you that Steph was trying to internalize Batman's edicts. Steph realizing that Batman is not always correct would have been the epiphany of the story. I know. I just committed a sacrilege by claiming Batman can be wrong. But Batman can only be an interesting character if one accepts that he can sometimes, not only make mistakes based on lack of or poor information, but also because he can make a poor judgment. And so he would have been learning this lesson in a way from Steph whether she lived or died (I agree that outcome seemed rather arbitrary to the story). I brought it up because it seemed to fit with the concept that was being discussed about Steph bringing an outside perspective to the Batworld. Pure supposition on the part of a raving lunatic. Me. LOL Sorry.
    Batman being wrong about the no-kill rule isn't something I think can be done. Batman can and should be wrong about lots of things, but the no-kill rule is foundational to his relationship with the city and his own morality.

    Fundamentally, I really don't have a huge problem with the War Drums and War Games story up until Batman refuses to fully acknowledge his failure and wrongheadedness in firing Steph. It makes sense to me that he WOULD fire her, but then, later, I think he should have acknowledged that he screwed up as much or more than she did, and taken her back - if not as Robin, then as another apprentice. I still think that the story was setup to lead us to think this would happen, instead of Steph dying.
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  6. #81
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    The point of War Games was that Batman is awesome and always right and Steph was never fit to be a Gotham vigilante. More than any story about a hero turning bad, it invalidated all of her achievements and heroism up to that point. All the people she saved, even the times she saved both Bruce and Tim, did not matter. Even Hal Jordan and Jean Grey didn't have their previous heroism invalidated like that when they had their big turns as mass-murdering villains.

    The nature of Steph's back-to-back screwups always precluded an ending where she goes back to being Spoiler or Robin like before. A redemption story would have ended with her admitting she should never have put on a costume and retiring for 'good.' Heck, the Robin series immediately went back to Tim to highlight how amazing he is and how much better he is than Steph. In theory a later story could force her back into costume, this time older and wiser and therefore more worthy, but once she started the gang war the only possible options for her at the end of the story were retirement or death, and even if the entire story wasn't editorially mandated, most editors would still choose the death option as the proper punishment for what she did if they had to decide after the fact. The best-case scenario if they didn't kill her was Jean Paul Valley's ending where he gives up, stops being a vigilante for a long while, and in a separate story a year or two later finds redemption and gets back in the game. The story would have had to be completely scrapped and rewritten from scratch in order for there to be any kind of ending where she continues being a hero afterwards.

    In terms of her outside perspective, Steph's role is to be the lighter member of the family. The one who stands for hope instead of fear, who smiles instead of scowls. Instead of going farther than Batman, she's the one who calls out Batman for going to far the way he calls out Jason. Her being willing to kill on occasion would be the opposite of that and would go against everything her Batgirl and post-Nu52 appearances stand for.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 01-27-2022 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The point of War Games was that Batman is awesome and always right and Steph was never fit to be a Gotham vigilante. More than any story about a hero turning bad, it invalidated all of her achievements and heroism up to that point. All the people she saved, even the times she saved both Bruce and Tim, did not matter. Even Hal Jordan and Jean Grey didn't have their previous heroism invalidated like that when they had their big turns as mass-murdering villains.

    The nature of Steph's back-to-back screwups always precluded an ending where she goes back to being Spoiler or Robin like before. A redemption story would have ended with her admitting she should never have put on a costume and retiring for 'good.' Heck, the Robin series immediately went back to Tim to highlight how amazing he is and how much better he is than Steph. In theory a later story could force her back into costume, this time older and wiser and therefore more worthy, but once she started the gang war the only possible options for her at the end of the story were retirement or death, and even if the entire story wasn't editorially mandated, most editors would still choose the death option as the proper punishment for what she did if they had to decide after the fact. The best-case scenario if they didn't kill her was Jean Paul Valley's ending where he gives up, stops being a vigilante for a long while, and in a separate story a year or two later finds redemption and gets back in the game. The story would have had to be completely scrapped and rewritten from scratch in order for there to be any kind of ending where she continues being a hero afterwards.

    In terms of her outside perspective, Steph's role is to be the lighter member of the family. The one who stands for hope instead of fear, who smiles instead of scowls. Instead of going farther than Batman, she's the one who calls out Batman for going to far the way he calls out Jason. Her being willing to kill on occasion would be the opposite of that and would go against everything her Batgirl and post-Nu52 appearances stand for.
    The point of War Games is...muddled. I don't think it's quite that clear. Though Gabrych DEFINTIELY pushed the "Steph was never fit to be a hero" nonsense hard through Onyx. But other writers (Grayson, particulary) pushed back hard. I don't think a redemption story really would have needed that much of a change. In WRITING. It would have required Dan Didio to actually admit that his plan was stupid. Which would require the earth going backwards.

    I think Steph's status as a "lighter" member was really only pushed when she became Batfamily, because of BQM's preferences as a writer. I think that before her death, she was often compared to Jason as Robin, because of her temper and her rebelliousness. She was always spunky and fun, but she also had a darkness from living through her father's villainy and her mother's drug addiction. I think there's a reason why the Steph as Red Hood fanfics have a decent following.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    The point of War Games is...muddled. I don't think it's quite that clear. Though Gabrych DEFINTIELY pushed the "Steph was never fit to be a hero" nonsense hard through Onyx. But other writers (Grayson, particulary) pushed back hard. I don't think a redemption story really would have needed that much of a change. In WRITING. It would have required Dan Didio to actually admit that his plan was stupid. Which would require the earth going backwards.

    I think Steph's status as a "lighter" member was really only pushed when she became Batfamily, because of BQM's preferences as a writer. I think that before her death, she was often compared to Jason as Robin, because of her temper and her rebelliousness. She was always spunky and fun, but she also had a darkness from living through her father's villainy and her mother's drug addiction. I think there's a reason why the Steph as Red Hood fanfics have a decent following.
    The comparisons with Jason happened after her death, as a justification for how she was treated, While she had an angry streak, in general she was the lighter character in each superhero pairing she had, whether it was Tim, Cass, or Bruce. Gotham Knights #22 and her time as Robin really emphasize that. She was the one who made being a superhero fun for Tim and Cass and got Bruce to crack a smile.

    And again, once she set off the gang war, that was it. It is the nature of storytelling that characters' mistakes have consequences, and mistakes of that magnitude have correspondingly large consequences. Just as Boromir was doomed the moment he tried to take the ring from Frodo or Jean Grey was doomed the moment she destroyed an inhabited planet, Steph was doomed the moment she set off the gang war. No editor would let her off the hook for that, even if he didn't have some stupid axe to grind for Didio. That's also the reason Hal Jordan got retconned into being mind-controlled and Jean Grey got retconned into never being the Phoenix, to get them off the hook for what they did so they could be brought back without it seeming that they avoided their just punishments. If Steph ended War Games in full health continuing on as a vigilante, that would violate a basic storytelling convention that even Game of Thrones wouldn't break, that characters - especially the 'good' ones - get punished for their actions.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 01-27-2022 at 03:00 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The comparisons with Jason happened after her death, as a justification for how she was treated, While she had an angry streak, in general she was the lighter character in each superhero pairing she had, whether it was Tim, Cass, or Bruce. Gotham Knights #22 and her time as Robin really emphasize that. She was the one who made being a superhero fun for Tim and Cass and got Bruce to crack a smile.

    And again, once she set off the gang war, that was it. It is the nature of storytelling that characters' mistakes have consequences, and mistakes of that magnitude have correspondingly large consequences. Just as Boromir was doomed the moment he tried to take the ring from Frodo or Jean Grey was doomed the moment she destroyed an inhabited planet, Steph was doomed the moment she set off the gang war. No editor would let her off the hook for that, even if he didn't have some stupid axe to grind for Didio. That's also the reason Hal Jordan got retconned into being mind-controlled and Jean Grey got retconned into never being the Phoenix, to get them off the hook for what they did so they could be brought back without it seeming that they avoided their just punishments. If Steph ended War Games in full health continuing on as a vigilante, that would violate a basic storytelling convention that even Game of Thrones wouldn't break, that characters - especially the 'good' ones - get punished for their actions.
    No, the comparisons with Jason happened in the leadin to War Games. There's this whole arc where Bruce and Cass go to Jason's grave and they talk about Steph, collected in the newest printing of the War Games arc.

    Eh. Perhaps I just think that the blame for the gang war isn't wholly on Steph's shoulders. Plus, I'd imagine that you could still do a redemption if Steph got very hurt (possibly even tortured as she was in the actual story), but you just don't have her die.

    And I'd never consider Game of Thrones a good model for storytelling.
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  10. #85
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    A redemption means the character is fundamentally changed. She cannot be the same before and after. The War Games that was published was more of a redemption story for Steph than a story where she fixed everything and ended the gang war by herself only to go on as Spoiler as usual would be. Stopping the gang war is the least important part of any potential redemption story. What matters is the day after. And again, given the nature of her mistakes, which were about trying to help but only making things worse, a real redemption arc would not result in her doing a better job at helping, but in her realizing that she can't help and retiring. Being better at the hero gig is not a redemption. Overcoming her character flaws is the redemption, and the nature of the flaws which lead to her big mistakes preclude her from both being redeemed and remaining a vigilante. It's one or the other.

    These factors, the need for characters to be punished for their mistakes and the nature of redemption, are two insurmountable obstacles to a magical version of War Games where Steph can get fired for disobeying Batman, start the gang war with her next act, get redeemed for that and remain Spoiler or Robin at the end of it all.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    A redemption means the character is fundamentally changed. She cannot be the same before and after. The War Games that was published was more of a redemption story for Steph than a story where she fixed everything and ended the gang war by herself only to go on as Spoiler as usual would be. Stopping the gang war is the least important part of any potential redemption story. What matters is the day after. And again, given the nature of her mistakes, which were about trying to help but only making things worse, a real redemption arc would not result in her doing a better job at helping, but in her realizing that she can't help and retiring. Being better at the hero gig is not a redemption. Overcoming her character flaws is the redemption, and the nature of the flaws which lead to her big mistakes preclude her from both being redeemed and remaining a vigilante. It's one or the other.

    These factors, the need for characters to be punished for their mistakes and the nature of redemption, are two insurmountable obstacles to a magical version of War Games where Steph can get fired for disobeying Batman, start the gang war with her next act, get redeemed for that and remain Spoiler or Robin at the end of it all.
    I think we have very different thoughts about what a redemption story is. To me, a redemption story is a character starts out having made a wrong choice or a mistake, and having to redeem themselves.

    And I'm not imagining Steph just going on as Spoiler as before - I imagine that she would actually get training and acceptance by Batman.

    I also think we strongly disagree about what Steph's character flaws are. I don't think Steph's character flaw was one that requires her to be "punished" or retire.

    And that being said, I'm just going to stop, because I've had 15 years of people telling me that "Steph deserved to die."

    I don't need it in the actual Steph appreciation thread. You can go somewhere else to argue that.
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  12. #87
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    You know I'm a big Steph fan. I started this appreciation thread. I hate War Games with a passion, for what it does to Steph, for what it does to Batman, and for being a terrible story from start to finish. It erases all of her character growth over the previous decade, makes it seem like she never learned anything, and dialed her flaws up to 11, and it is entirely dependent on plot-induced stupidity from 3 different characters just to get started. The primary problem with War Games is the beginning. If that isn't fixed then any changes to the ending don't matter. The way the story begins leaves Steph with 2 options, retire or die. To add any other option that beginning needs to be changed and Steph needs to be treated with more respect and be less of an idiot at the start of the story. It would have to be a story which acknowledges how she had changed and grown over the years, which actually treated Batman's treatment of her as a mistake and not entirely justified. The character assassination Steph goes through at the start, the disregarding of her entire history and growth, those are the elements that would have needed to be changed to salvage War Games. Any fix that doesn't fundamentally alter the beginning of the story is a band-aid on a patient that has already bled out.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    You know I'm a big Steph fan. I started this appreciation thread. I hate War Games with a passion, for what it does to Steph, for what it does to Batman, and for being a terrible story from start to finish. It erases all of her character growth over the previous decade, makes it seem like she never learned anything, and dialed her flaws up to 11, and it is entirely dependent on plot-induced stupidity from 3 different characters just to get started. The primary problem with War Games is the beginning. If that isn't fixed then any changes to the ending don't matter. The way the story begins leaves Steph with 2 options, retire or die. To add any other option that beginning needs to be changed and Steph needs to be treated with more respect and be less of an idiot at the start of the story. It would have to be a story which acknowledges how she had changed and grown over the years, which actually treated Batman's treatment of her as a mistake and not entirely justified. The character assassination Steph goes through at the start, the disregarding of her entire history and growth, those are the elements that would have needed to be changed to salvage War Games. Any fix that doesn't fundamentally alter the beginning of the story is a band-aid on a patient that has already bled out.
    Fair enough. I didn't mean to set everybody off. Clearly, as a fan of Steph, I became involved in the War Games story despite the bad beginnings (not that unusual in comics) and was devastated by the way it played out. So I desperately tried to find ways to fix it for years. And ignored DC completely for a few years after until Steph returned. I think Steph brings a somewhat lighter upbeat attitude to the Batverse AND also alternative perspectives to the absolutism of many hardcore Batman fans.

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    By Vaneda Vireak


  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    By Vaneda Vireak

    A classic piece! Always makes me think of the line from Steph's Batgirl series, that she's seeing something through.
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