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  1. #61

  2. #62
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    I think Steph could definitely have worked as Robin longer than she did.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Thanks for linking the article! I don't know that I completely agree that Steph is the greatest, even though she's definitely my absolute favorite Robin, but I do think that her "outsider" viewpoint is a really big asset for the Batfamily. And I wish DC had listened to everyone except Gabrych and Didio and Harras and kept Steph as Robin for a good year or so, let her really try.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  4. #64

  5. #65
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Those are gorgeous! Thanks so much for sharing! I love the detail, attitude, and the fact that Steph has her thigh belt in the second image!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  6. #66
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    That's pretty nice art. They even make the mask work .

  7. #67
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Becky Cloonan and Jess Chen both replied to this guy's art...
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Becky Cloonan and Jess Chen both replied to this guy's art...
    Jorge Corona as well.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypo View Post
    Jorge Corona as well.
    Yes, quite impressive!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Thanks for linking the article! I don't know that I completely agree that Steph is the greatest, even though she's definitely my absolute favorite Robin, but I do think that her "outsider" viewpoint is a really big asset for the Batfamily. And I wish DC had listened to everyone except Gabrych and Didio and Harras and kept Steph as Robin for a good year or so, let her really try.
    Yes, I recall being so excited when Steph became Robin until I realized it was all a set-up. I also thought a good conclusion to War Games would have been for Steph to shoot and kill Black Mask when she had the chance, then to explain to Batman on her "death bed" that there are times when it is necessary to kill. And Batman agreeing.

  11. #71
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    Love these, particularly the bubblegum image!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    Yes, I recall being so excited when Steph became Robin until I realized it was all a set-up. I also thought a good conclusion to War Games would have been for Steph to shoot and kill Black Mask when she had the chance, then to explain to Batman on her "death bed" that there are times when it is necessary to kill. And Batman agreeing.
    That would be quite interesting, though I doubt that DC would have let her come back if she'd gone that far. I personally thought that DC was setting Steph up for a redemption arc - she screws up as Robin and then starting the war, but then proves herself and Batman chooses to train her. Seems much more interesting and sensible than what they went with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    Love these, particularly the bubblegum image!
    Steph's attitude in these pics is just perfect!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  13. #73
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    Her killing and Batman agreeing it was right would be even worse than the story we got, and that is saying something. It would go even further in terms of undermining her character growth over the years, and turn a story which unintentionally undermines Batman as a concept into a story which intentionally destroys the very idea of Batman. Steph would become the most hated character in the bat-mythos - not just a screw-up but the character who destroyed the 'one rule,' removed all moral conflict from the franchise, and proved Zack Snyder right. It's also irrelevant since Batman's problem with her had nothing to do with the no-killing rule or her supposed willingness to break it. It was about her recklessness, unpredictability, and supposed lack of skill.

    War Games was a poorly conceived idea from the start on just about every level. The entire plot requires both Steph and Bruce to suffer extreme and somewhat out-of-character cases of plot-induced stupidity, and to some extent Tim suffered from it as well. It was all about the shock value with no care for character or consistency or quality. They never even bothered to come up with a halfway decent explanation for why this gang war is supposedly so much worse than all other gang wars. Simply changing the ending would not have fixed the story which was so flawed from conception. Both Steph and Batman's motivations at the start needed to be changed to be less stupid. The catalyst for the gang war should never have been the result of Batman repeating the exact same mistake as Tower of Babel. And something needed to be done to set the gang war apart and justify why it was that serious in a world where Batman has been operating for around 15 years already and Gotham's already been through so much worse like No Man's Land.

    The best solution would have been to scrap the entire event and never publish it. But if some shortsighted editor like Didio refused to back down from a gang war event where Steph must die, the way I'd write it is to have Black Mask be the instigator of everything, have him track Spoiler under the assumption she's working with Batman, and through her learn of Batman's contingency plans. Instead of some cockamamie plan to take control of the mob which a toddler would realize at first glance would never work even if Matches Malone showed up on time, the secret is that there is a scenario for which Batman can't find a contingency - the introduction of a new kind of weapon into Gotham. My idea is the toastmaker guns John Henry Irons created and which he became Steel to destroy. These things are ridiculously powerful, basically a gun with the power of a tank. They hadn't been introduced into Gotham yet because they were just too expensive for any of Gotham's gangs or mob bosses, but upon learning how much Batman fears a scenario in which the Gotham underworld starts packing them, he starts buying them in bulk and selling them for dirt cheap to anyone who'd buy - losing a lot of money in the process but setting up Batman's worst nightmare. With these new weapons setting off an arms race the gang war is set off, and it's worse than anyone could have imagined because every gang member is packing the equivalent of a tank over his shoulder. Steph realizes that that it was through her that the mastermind came up with this plan, and follows the trail back to where Black Mask is keeping his supply of toastmakers, but having been cut off by Batman she has know way of contacting anyone in the batfamily and has to take measures into her own hands. She manages to set off an explosion which destroys much of the site and the toastmakers, which draws Batman and the rest to the site, but is confronted by Black Mask and mortally wounded before help can arrive. The batfamily clean up the rest of the operation, and with the supply of toastmakers cut off the war comes to an end as the ones in circulation start to break and malfunction with repeated use. Batman recognizes Steph's sacrifice and realizes that if he had kept her in the loop she could have come to him and not only would the conflict have been resolved much sooner, but she wouldn't have had to die to stop it, and he tells her he was wrong and she was worthy right before she dies. In this version, Steph and Batman may make certain mistakes which get the plot going, but those aren't the kinds of mistakes which make you think they're complete idiots. The gang war has a reason to be so serious with the introduction of a new weapon previously only seen in Metropolis which changes the dynamics completely. And Steph gets a truly heroic sacrifice and to play an actual role in the resolution.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 01-25-2022 at 09:45 AM.

  14. #74
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Her killing and Batman agreeing it was right would be even worse than the story we got, and that is saying something. It would go even further in terms of undermining her character growth over the years, and turn a story which unintentionally undermines Batman as a concept into a story which intentionally destroys the very idea of Batman. Steph would become the most hated character in the bat-mythos - not just a screw-up but the character who destroyed the 'one rule,' removed all moral conflict from the franchise, and proved Zack Snyder right.

    War Games was a poorly conceived idea from the start on just about every level. The entire plot requires both Steph and Bruce to suffer extreme and somewhat out-of-character cases of plot-induced stupidity, and to some extent Tim suffered from it as well. It was all about the shock value with no care for character or consistency or quality. They never even bothered to come up with a halfway decent explanation for why this gang war is supposedly so much worse than all other gang wars. Simply changing the ending would not have fixed the story which was so flawed from conception. Both Steph and Batman's motivations at the start needed to be changed to be less stupid. The catalyst for the gang war should never have been the result of Batman repeating the exact same mistake as Tower of Babel. And something needed to be done to set the gang war apart and justify why it was that serious in a world where Batman has been operating for around 15 years already and Gotham's already been through so much worse like No Man's Land.

    The best solution would have been to scrap the entire event and never publish it. But if some shortsighted editor like Didio refused to back down from a gang war event where Steph must die, the way I'd write it is to have Black Mask be the instigator of everything, have him track Spoiler under the assumption she's working with Batman, and through her learn of Batman's contingency plans. Instead of some cockamamie plan to take control of the mob which a toddler would realize at first glance would never work even if Matches Malone showed up on time, the secret is that there is a scenario for which Batman can't find a contingency - the introduction of a new kind of weapon into Gotham. My idea is the toastmaker guns John Henry Irons created and which he became Steel to destroy. These things are ridiculously powerful, basically a gun with the power of a tank. They hadn't been introduced into Gotham yet because they were just too expensive for any of Gotham's gangs or mob bosses, but upon learning how much Batman fears a scenario in which the Gotham underworld starts packing them, he starts buying them in bulk and selling them for dirt cheap to anyone who'd buy - losing a lot of money in the process but setting up Batman's worst nightmare. With these new weapons setting off an arms race the gang war is set off, and it's worse than anyone could have imagined because every gang member is packing the equivalent of a tank over his shoulder. Steph realizes that that it was through her that the mastermind came up with this plan, and follows the trail back to where Black Mask is keeping his supply of toastmakers, but having been cut off by Batman she has know way of contacting anyone in the batfamily and has to take measures into her own hands. She manages to set off an explosion which destroys much of the site and the toastmakers, which draws Batman and the rest to the site, but is confronted by Black Mask and mortally wounded before help can arrive. The batfamily clean up the rest of the operation, and with the supply of toastmakers cut off the war comes to an end as the ones in circulation start to break and malfunction with repeated use. Batman recognizes Steph's sacrifice and realizes that if he had kept her in the loop she could have come to him and not only would the conflict have been resolved much sooner, but she wouldn't have had to die to stop it, and he tells her he was wrong and she was worthy right before she dies. In this version, Steph and Batman may make certain mistakes which get the plot going, but those aren't the kinds of mistakes which make you think they're complete idiots. The gang war has a reason to be so serious with the introduction of a new weapon previously only seen in Metropolis which changes the dynamics completely. And Steph gets a truly heroic sacrifice and to play an actual role in the resolution.
    I don't QUITE agree that Steph would be the most hated character - Jason breaks Batman's one rule all the time, including in the story right after Steph dies, and he has tons of fans. But it definitely doesn't quite fit with how Steph had been written up to that point, and would have changed the nature of her fanbase significantly.

    I actually like the concept of War Games in that Batman having a plan to try to dramatically reduce the number of gangs and put them under his control does seem like something Batman would have, and I do feel that after the wretched excuse for firing her, Steph would be thrown into panic, desperately making the stupid decision to activate the plan. So far I follow with the writers. However, the idea that Batman can recognize the plan after everything has gone wrong because things are happening according to schedule? Makes zero sense. And the plan to have Batman lose everything just so Black Mask can be in charge? To what end? What are the "good stories" that require Black Mask to be in charge? They aren't there. It's just a stupid ending, all around, no question about it.

    Your proposed plan to do War Games as instigated by Black Mask is an interesting one. I think it could work. I love the way you use the Toastmaster! I dunno why Steph has to die in our hypothetical, unless we're imagining a pitch to Didio "kill em for sales".

    Very interesting thoughts - thanks for sharing!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't QUITE agree that Steph would be the most hated character - Jason breaks Batman's one rule all the time, including in the story right after Steph dies, and he has tons of fans. But it definitely doesn't quite fit with how Steph had been written up to that point, and would have changed the nature of her fanbase significantly.

    I actually like the concept of War Games in that Batman having a plan to try to dramatically reduce the number of gangs and put them under his control does seem like something Batman would have, and I do feel that after the wretched excuse for firing her, Steph would be thrown into panic, desperately making the stupid decision to activate the plan. So far I follow with the writers. However, the idea that Batman can recognize the plan after everything has gone wrong because things are happening according to schedule? Makes zero sense. And the plan to have Batman lose everything just so Black Mask can be in charge? To what end? What are the "good stories" that require Black Mask to be in charge? They aren't there. It's just a stupid ending, all around, no question about it.

    Your proposed plan to do War Games as instigated by Black Mask is an interesting one. I think it could work. I love the way you use the Toastmaster! I dunno why Steph has to die in our hypothetical, unless we're imagining a pitch to Didio "kill em for sales".

    Very interesting thoughts - thanks for sharing!
    Steph killing isn't what would make her the most hated character. It's her getting Batman to agree that killing is justified which would to that. Her being the character who gets Batman to renounce his 'one rule' would make her as likeable as King Joffery. Jason works because he's a foil for Batman, another road Batman could go down but doesn't. If Under the Red Hood ended with Batman telling Jason 'you're right' and shooting the Joker, it would be the most hated Batman story of all time and Jason would be the most hated Batman character.

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