Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2022

[Frontier]

Nightwing's arc is supposedly Batfamily focused, so if we were going to get more Steph, it would probably be there.

[DisneyBoy]

A question: what do people enjoy about her relationship with Tim?

[millernumber1]

A question: what do people enjoy about her relationship with Tim?

For me, it's the sense of reality and intensity that I get from the best moments they have - the awkwardness in the misunderstandings and personality clashes, the sweetness in how Steph thinks about Tim or how Tim takes care of Steph when she's pregnant, the potential that two crime fighters in love has, the way they (deliberately, on Dixon's part) remind one of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson.

[sunofdarkchild]

A question: what do people enjoy about her relationship with Tim?

In the 90s and early 2000s they had a very fun dynamic. That's how it started. Their relationship was allowed to grow naturally over the course of several years before they officially became a couple. Then the dynamic of Tim keeping his civilian identity a secret was a departure from the usual dynamic of the superhero keeping their costumed identity secret from their significant other and created a power imbalance in the relationship since Tim knew pretty much everything about Steph. From Steph's point of view, Tim was her gateway into a world beyond her criminal father and drug-addict mother, and she wants to learn from him how to be the best hero and person she can be since she doesn't have any good role models in her life. From Tim's perspective, Steph turns being a vigilante from a job and something he often dreads into something enjoyable and to look forward to. She helps him learn to enjoy being Robin.

In terms of nowadays, Tim's character has been so thoroughly destroyed since 2004 and especially since the Nu52 that his relationship with Steph is the only value he has as a character anymore. Take that away and he might as well not exist because there is nothing else to him anymore. If there is one character who should be written out and forgotten about or erased by a reboot it is Tim, because the great character he was before 2004 is never going to come back and the current version is a waste of space except for his status as Steph's boyfriend.

[ohfellow]

In the 90s and early 2000s they had a very fun dynamic. That's how it started. Their relationship was allowed to grow naturally over the course of several years before they officially became a couple. Then the dynamic of Tim keeping his civilian identity a secret was a departure from the usual dynamic of the superhero keeping their costumed identity secret from their significant other and created a power imbalance in the relationship since Tim knew pretty much everything about Steph. From Steph's point of view, Tim was her gateway into a world beyond her criminal father and drug-addict mother, and she wants to learn from him how to be the best hero and person she can be since she doesn't have any good role models in her life. From Tim's perspective, Steph turns being a vigilante from a job and something he often dreads into something enjoyable and to look forward to. She helps him learn to enjoy being Robin.

In terms of nowadays, Tim's character has been so thoroughly destroyed since 2004 and especially since the Nu52 that his relationship with Steph is the only value he has as a character anymore. Take that away and he might as well not exist because there is nothing else to him anymore. If there is one character who should be written out and forgotten about or erased by a reboot it is Tim, because the great character he was before 2004 is never going to come back and the current version is a waste of space except for his status as Steph's boyfriend.

I guess you know they broke up?

[sunofdarkchild]

I guess you know they broke up?

Yes. And the way it was handled proves that DC doesn't care about Tim's character. Maybe if it was treated with some respect they could have done something with this new direction, but having them break up off-panel was DC declaring there's no point in caring about Tim's 'new direction' since they don't care to begin with. This entire situation stems from them having no idea what to do with Tim.

[ohfellow]

Yes. And the way it was handled proves that DC doesn't care about Tim's character. Maybe if it was treated with some respect they could have done something with this new direction, but having them break up off-panel was DC declaring there's no point in caring about Tim's 'new direction' since they don't care to begin with. This entire situation stems from them having no idea what to do with Tim.

Was it in Future State that for the first time we learned that they had broken up? The thing is, in that story Tim proceeded to die, his neck snapped. Revived with Lazarus resin. Written by the same Meghan Fitzmartin who wrote the Urban Legends story. For a new writer for DC, and comics, she sure wanted to do big things.

You wouldn't think an inexperienced comic writer with no prior DC history would pitch story ideas like these, but I think you're right - DC didn't care. If they really cared, and actually had made these plans, they'd have probably brought in a more experienced writer to implement them.

I forget what the consensus is - is it more likely that Dan Mora blinded Steph in his design work for Future State? Or do we think Fitzmartin made that choice too? Whatever the consensus was, I really don't think Mora would have made a storytelling that extreme without editorial direction.

I keep waiting for the blinding to happen. For instance, in the final scene of Detective #1047, the assumption is we are seeing Helena in the elevator shaft - but we don't see her face. Dick has only JUST said he doesn't know where Steph went, one panel before we see the elevator. Yes, the next couple of panels have dialog suggesting it's Helena in there while showing the elevator, and the person appears to be in hospital clothes, but I fear we are looking at a misdirect. The hair on the person in the elevator shaft is not Helena's - it's blond hair. And this person is BLEEDING FROM HER SHIELDED FACE. It's not a cut - she's gushing blood.

It is certainly a deliberate choice to hide her face - and we may not know for MONTHS who it is, if the rest of the Shadows of the Bat is written as a flashback starting with "Day 8."

Sorry to give everybody nightmares!

[millernumber1]

Was it in Future State that for the first time we learned that they had broken up? The thing is, in that story Tim proceeded to die, his neck snapped. Revived with Lazarus resin. Written by the same Meghan Fitzmartin who wrote the Urban Legends story. For a new writer for DC, and comics, she sure wanted to do big things.

You wouldn't think an inexperienced comic writer with no prior DC history would pitch story ideas like these, but I think you're right - DC didn't care. If they really cared, and actually had made these plans, they'd have probably brought in a more experienced writer to implement them.

I forget what the consensus is - is it more likely that Dan Mora blinded Steph in his design work for Future State? Or do we think Fitzmartin made that choice too? Whatever the consensus was, I really don't think Mora would have made a storytelling that extreme without editorial direction.

I keep waiting for the blinding to happen. For instance, in the final scene of Detective #1047, the assumption is we are seeing Helena in the elevator shaft - but we don't see her face. Dick has only JUST said he doesn't know where Steph went, one panel before we see the elevator. Yes, the next couple of panels have dialog suggesting it's Helena in there while showing the elevator, and the person appears to be in hospital clothes, but I fear we are looking at a misdirect. The hair on the person in the elevator shaft is not Helena's - it's blond hair. And this person is BLEEDING FROM HER SHIELDED FACE. It's not a cut - she's gushing blood.

It is certainly a deliberate choice to hide her face - and we may not know for MONTHS who it is, if the rest of the Shadows of the Bat is written as a flashback starting with "Day 8."

Sorry to give everybody nightmares!

I mean, breaking up in an alternate future doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I do think that the excruciatingly narrow focus on Jason and Jace, to the exclusion of the rest of the Batfamily except for very brief cameos, has been a huge weakness of the Future State: Gotham title, though I do appreciate that Tim seems to be functionally Wolverine now.

I mean, she is an inexperienced comic writer, but she's been writing TV for quite a while (though I have not seen any of her episodes). She also has been a fan of the characters for a long time - I used to listen to a podcast she did with a buddy probably about 10 years ago.

I do think the fact that DC let someone with no history with the company make such a big change means that they don't really have big plans for Tim, and I do wonder if this was actually something they preferred for Steph, since that means she has less baggage going into Batgirls (though since Tim doesn't have a title, that particular character baggage is fairly easy to write around).

I think Mora probably gave Steph the eyepatch, yeah, given that his artwork was released really early. But perhaps that was a storytelling decision by either Fitzmartin or more likely Ayala (I say more likely because Ayala's "characterization" of Steph was pure cliched "bad girl" which fits with the eye patch look).

You are giving me nightmares with the idea that the missing eye is something that DC is really interested in pursuing! Definitely do not want that! Especially if it happens outside of her main title of Batgirls - that's just more Dick Grayson getting shot in Batman nonsense!

[Darkspellmaster]

Maybe in Nightwing's arc?

Hopefully that comes soon because I'm annoyed with most of the stories they have been doing so far with YJ.

[Darkspellmaster]

I mean, breaking up in an alternate future doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I do think that the excruciatingly narrow focus on Jason and Jace, to the exclusion of the rest of the Batfamily except for very brief cameos, has been a huge weakness of the Future State: Gotham title, though I do appreciate that Tim seems to be functionally Wolverine now.

I mean, she is an inexperienced comic writer, but she's been writing TV for quite a while (though I have not seen any of her episodes). She also has been a fan of the characters for a long time - I used to listen to a podcast she did with a buddy probably about 10 years ago.

I do think the fact that DC let someone with no history with the company make such a big change means that they don't really have big plans for Tim, and I do wonder if this was actually something they preferred for Steph, since that means she has less baggage going into Batgirls (though since Tim doesn't have a title, that particular character baggage is fairly easy to write around).

I think Mora probably gave Steph the eyepatch, yeah, given that his artwork was released really early. But perhaps that was a storytelling decision by either Fitzmartin or more likely Ayala (I say more likely because Ayala's "characterization" of Steph was pure cliched "bad girl" which fits with the eye patch look).

You are giving me nightmares with the idea that the missing eye is something that DC is really interested in pursuing! Definitely do not want that! Especially if it happens outside of her main title of Batgirls - that's just more Dick Grayson getting shot in Batman nonsense!

Wait they want to blind her? Are we really back tacking into edgy 90s DC nonsense again?

[millernumber1]

Wait they want to blind her? Are we really back tacking into edgy 90s DC nonsense again?

I think ohfellow is just talking about her eyepatch, indicating a missing eye, from Future State.

[Darkspellmaster]

A question: what do people enjoy about her relationship with Tim?

I guess for me it seemed Tim was more confident around Steph and more sure of himself. They seemed like Peter and MJ or Lois and Clark. She just worked with him. I love their friendship and their romance and the way they helped one another and Tim being there when she had her baby and he Steph was there for him at the loss of his dad.

I think there's a fear that they don't know what to do with him or her in some cases.

[Darkspellmaster]

I think ohfellow is just talking about her eyepatch, indicating a missing eye, from Future State.

Hope that's the case and we're not about to dive into a land of crashing and burning for our favorite character

[millernumber1]

I guess for me it seemed Tim was more confident around Steph and more sure of himself. They seemed like Peter and MJ or Lois and Clark. She just worked with him. I love their friendship and their romance and the way they helped one another and Tim being there when she had her baby and he Steph was there for him at the loss of his dad.

I think there's a fear that they don't know what to do with him or her in some cases.

I love those things too! (Just wanted to note that Steph actually "died" a few days before Jack did, sadly, so she wasn't there )

Hope that's the case and we're not about to dive into a land of crashing and burning for our favorite character

I hope not, personally - I don't want Steph to lose an eye. It could be a story where she grows and conquers, like Babs becoming Oracle, but it's rough. But I personally hope it won't happen.

[ohfellow]

Wait they want to blind her? Are we really back tacking into edgy 90s DC nonsense again?

I think ohfellow is just talking about her eyepatch, indicating a missing eye, from Future State.

Yes, it's that eyepatch. It's not a temporary patch - her eye hasn't "healed" in the ongoing "Future State: Gotham" where she makes an occasional cameo. But this is from "Future State: Robin Eternal":

Future Steph.jpg

It's really an insensitive, perverse, downright stupid choice, when you think about the character history - you know, the small matters of torture and death. I guess their thinking is "let's put Barbara back in a wheelchair. We did it once, so this is something that happens to this character - let's do it again! And we tortured Steph once, so yeah, same thing - let's do that again too!"