Wonder Woman and "Canon Events" (or fate)

[Guy_McNichts]

So I just watched Across the Spider-Verse and, without getting deep into spoilers, a key part of the film's conflict is the premise of "canon events." Things that have/need to happen in history or the timeline, no matter how tragic or horrific, because that's the way it's supposed to be.

As with many things--particularly superhero media--it got me thinking what Wonder Woman would or should do if she were thrust in such a scenario. Would she support "canon events"...even if they mean innocent people dying...or would she resist and rebel?

I recall something similar to this coming up in a comic J. Michael Straczynski wrote where Zatanna has a vision of Barbara Gordon's paralysis at the Joker's hand, so she and Diana take her out for a night on the town. It's been a while since I read the issue, but I recall Diana and Zee arguing whether they should or should not warn Babs or try to alter her fate, and ultimately agreeing to let it play out.
I also recall there being some controversy/debate among fans at the time whether that was in-character for Diana and Zee.

On the one hand...Diana strikes me as someone who does believe in destiny and, being Greek, is aware of the story of Oedipus--where the lesson was you can't fight fate, and to even try would only make things worse.
On the other hand, Diana is someone who is supposed to challenge the status quo and would not abide any innocent suffering even it was "fated" to be so. She's also supposed to subvert the old Greek myths and tales, so I could see her wanting to fly in the face of Oedipus' story.

Of course, I would feel remiss not to address the purely narrative approach.
Meaning...in stories like Across the Spider-Verse or Marvel's Civil War...or the current Gotham War going on in Batman's books...there's always the element of "protagonist-centered morality." Which is to say: the protagonist and characters the writers likes will favor the "correct" position, and everyone else will be wrong. And people--both fans and creators--don't like the characters they like to be in the wrong.

I see this often come up when people on other message boards or Twitter speculate who would take which side in a DC Civil War, and invariably, it always boils down to: "the cool characters I like would be sexy, anti-registration rebels against the MAN, while the lame, loser characters I don't like would be pro-registration government stooges."

I'm sure, being Wonder Woman fans all, we would like to imagine Diana would be the cool character who goes against what the antagonist (whoever they may be) stands for. And sadly, I think more often than not, many writers shove her onto the antagonist side whether it suits her or not (Injustice perhaps being the most blatant example).

So what do you think? Would Diana buy into the concept of "canon events" or would she resist them, believing there's a better way?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I mean shoot, at one point we were actually told canon events were a thing. Gerry Conways run had Steve die for the ninth time and Diana returned to the island, drank a lethe spiked beverage, and then some months later when a Steve Trevor crashes on the island, were in formed that this is a fixed event that cannot be changed.

That said however, this is also a character who has seen events in the future and worked to alter them such as knowing Gerta would one day become a supervillain.
A character who despite them being historical events, aided Queen Boudica in driving the Romans from British shores.
Averted the wild knife party of Julius Ceaser.
And fought off the colonists trying to claim South America.
With Wonder Woman going back to the present...And history books saying that history was actually changed in the process.

I think Wonder Woman would absolutely believe in canon events. However for it to be a canon event, it would have to be something that she is incapable of altering or averting. Otherwise thats not a canon event, thats just headcanon.

[OBrianTallent]

While Diana would understand the fates (and the Fates) of canon events, I think she would nonetheless fight against it if it meant saving a life. One aspect of King's ideas of Diana (and even Patty Jenkins') that I agree on is that she is at heart a rebel (she participated in the Games against her mother's wishes to get off the island after all.) She would ultimately accept what she could not change, but would not sit idly by and let it happen.

[bardkeep]

I'm in the "Historia should be the canon lore" camp and that entire story is just the heroes repeatedly refusing to accept the hand that's dealt, even though most of their attempts fail.

Diana is created from the soul of a baby Hippolyta refuses to leave in the hands of fate and fails to save. The entire formation of the seventh tribe comes from a humble midwife refusing to back down after an all-powerful goddess and 30 divine champions tell her a mortal can never be an Amazon. Themyscira is created because a broken, beaten-down mortal stands before the entire Greek pantheon and tells them she won't comply with their terms.

And then you have Hera, who foreshadows her involvement by telling Athena, "A doomed venture may still be a worthy one." She can see the future and knows with absolute certainty that the Amazons will never succeed in their mission as liberators, and she explicitly creates Diana to try anyway.

In other words, I don't just think Diana resists fate - I think it's her central rallying cry. Superman's message is "there's always a way," Wonder Woman's is "there may not be a way but we're going to die trying." It's about always enduring rather than always succeeding.

I'd say most good WW writers are of the same mind about it - thinking of stories like Hiketeia, which is about Diana in a doomed fight with the Fates over a girl she swears to protect. The major exception that comes to mind is Perez because his Diana is so deeply reverent starting out, but he shows her becoming disillusioned by the gods as she becomes more experienced.

[Frontier]

I don't think Diana would be the type to dwell on it, because what will be will be, but if there was someone in front of her that needed saving or to be protected, fate or no fate she'd try to save them.

I wonder if "Vanessa becoming Silver Swan" counts as a canon event. Or like Donna's family dying in a car accident.

[king81992]

I don't think Diana would be the type to dwell on it, because what will be will be, but if there was someone in front of her that needed saving or to be protected, fate or no fate she'd try to save them.

I wonder if "Vanessa becoming Silver Swan" counts as a canon event. Or like Donna's family dying in a car accident.

Vanessa needs a redemption arc.

[Guy_McNichts]

I wonder if "Vanessa becoming Silver Swan" counts as a canon event.

Probably. The fact it was brought back through a reboot and adapted into an animated movie, I guess we could say Vanessa's downfall is one of Diana's Canon Events now.

It occurs to me that, aside from obvious stuff like the origin and enemies, Diana doesn't seem to have many Canon Events. I'd wager Batman losing at least one Robin to the Joker (Jason in the comics, Dick in the DCEU, Tim in the DCAU) is one of his. Superman dying while fighting Doomsday is likely one of his.
Likely due to her lack of adaptations, and despite all the reboots she's experienced, Diana doesn't have many moments or developments that would qualify.

Which raises a question: what would or should be regarded as Wonder Woman's Canon Events, good and bad?

Some suggestions:

- as said, the obvious origin stuff: Steve Trevor will crash onto Themyscira, Diana will leave against her mother's wishes (be it the Contest or just going), etc.

- the Cheetah...be it Priscilla, Barbara, or someone else...will be her enemy

- being temporarily replaced by Artemis

- separation & eventual reconciliation with Nubia

- Themyscira will get flattened at least once

- like it or not...somehow, some way--be it time travel, Hippolyta, or her origin actually being set at the time--Wonder Woman will fight in World War II in some capacity

[OBrianTallent]

I would say being replaced/challenged is a cannon event. The Challenger is different in different times...Orana in the 70's, Artemis in the 90's. Wonder who would have challenged E2 Diana in the Golden Age?

[John Venus]

Wonder Woman does seem to believe in canon events. Rucka's run had her stopping Flash from burning down a forest because she thought it was it's nature to burn and that they should focus on saving people's homes. Then there was Hiketeia which centered entirely on Diana thinking that she had to protect a teenager due to an ancient ritual.

WML's run had Hippolyta trying to prevent a 'canon event' by setting up Artemis to die in Diana's place.

In the Brave and Bold issue where we find out that Zatanna and WW took Barabra on a night out because they foresaw the events of the Killing Joke, Diana tries in her own may to mitigate the damage by telling Babs about the Oracles of myth (thus planting the idea of Oracle in her head). She doesn't get mad or try to warn Babs when Zee tells her about her premonition.

The real question is; how would she react to someone who she cares about suffering a horrible fate? And what kind of event would be too horrible for her to let slide?

[Guy_McNichts]

So I recently watched Across the Spider-Verse again on Netflix, and it got me thinking about this subject.

I think it's worth addressing that, although there is definite overlap between the two, "canon events" as defined by Miguel in the film are not necessarily the same thing as destiny or fate.
In Wonder Woman terms, "fate" is saying Vanessa will become Silver Swan and that can't change. "Canon event" is saying Vanessa must become Silver Swan in every timeline/reality/universe because that's the canon and it shouldn't be changed.

Now...I think while a case could be made for Diana grudgingly accepting the former, I personally think she'd be very skeptical of the latter.

In regard to Diana's feelings about fate and destiny...I think most of us will agree she believes in it. The question is whether she believes it can or should be fought.
On one hand, as pointed out, there's that Brave & the Bold story with Zatanna and Barbara where her position was to let things play out.** However, we also have something like A League of One where Diana is presented with a prophecy and tries to loophole it in order to change the League's fate.
As with most things in comics, it seems to depend on the writer and story.

**For what it's worth, Diana's portrayal in this Brave & the Bold story never sat right with me, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it.

Another thing that's been gnawing at me is Greek mythology/theater's whole approach to fate and, by extension, oracles. In most Greek tales, a character foreseeing their fate or the future was kinda serious and highly dubious business. It wasn't just a cheap device to set the plot in motion (unlike certain modern comics). Oedipus learning his fate, and his subsequent attempts to fight it, led to disaster. Cassandra was cursed to have her warnings of doom constantly ignored.
Basically, the recurring theme wasn't just fighting one's fate is bad, but seeing one's fate at all is dangerous.

So I feel like Diana--being someone from this background--would regard prophecies and visions of the future with extreme caution. She wouldn't blindly believe them, but also wouldn't dismiss them outright.
At least that's my take.

Taking it back to Spider-Verse...I think while she might think Miguel's theories on canon events have merit, I don't think she'd go along with him. Specifically, I think she'd see his methods and fixation on preserving "the canon" as unhealthy and potentially dangerous. Because, by enforcing "the canon," he is still meddling with fate in a way.

In regard to Miles...I don't think she'd try to stop him from saving his father. But I do think she'd urge him to be cautious in his efforts, and if she felt he needed to be stopped, she would approach him far more gently than Miguel had.

[Guy_McNichts]

It's also occurred to me that although Donna Troy might consistently exist in relation to Diana (and even that's not a guarantee) there is very little else that would fall under "canon event" for her.

I've come to the conclusion she is therefore, by Miguel's standards, an anomaly. So he would hate her.



Sorry, Donna.