Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2022

[Panic]

Well, I don't know what you guys have been reading, after Aaron's run this run has been what we needed, a badass and powerful Thor, good stories, action and an entertaining plot. Granted I was still a little wary of having yet another Mjolnir centric story, but there's actually a purpose to this one, Donny Cates is attempting to fix the mess that Aaron made with the hammer and simplify things while showing Thor is more than just a hammer, as it was clearly shown in today's issue. This forum seems to have a predisposed pesimistic attitude towards anyone that dares to touch Thor, we keep this up and we'll be seen as a toxic fanbase. I get the frustration after dealing with Aaron's bs for so long, but this run has been really good and Cates is actually tackling the problems we fans have voiced for long and taken steps towards fixing them.

I can understand your point of view, and you're right about Cates moving certain things in a positive direction, but...

Characterisation. We get the God of Hammers mocking the idea that Thor was ever a paragon of nobility, but classic Thor was! This would be one of his defining characteristics for me. He wasn't perfect, but he certainly tried. He was noble, honourable, and for want of a better word, classy. That's pretty important to me, morso than feats or powerlevels. I find modern Marvel's characterisation of Thor troublesome. And though you can argue that the God of Hammers is a villain and is biased or lying, I feel it's Cates' opinion coming through.

So yeah, Cates has tried to mitigate a lot of Aaron's damage, but this characterisation is still a issue for me, as I'm sure it is with others. And that's why you'll still see some fans complain.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I can understand your point of view, and you're right about Cates moving certain things in a positive direction, but...

Characterisation. We get the God of Hammers mocking the idea that Thor was ever a paragon of nobility, but classic Thor was! This would be one of his defining characteristics for me. He wasn't perfect, but he certainly tried. He was noble, honourable, and for want of a better word, classy. That's pretty important to me, morso than feats or powerlevels. I find modern Marvel's characterisation of Thor troublesome. And though you can argue that the God of Hammers is a villain and is biased or lying, I feel it's Cates' opinion coming through.

So yeah, Cates has tried to mitigate a lot of Aaron's damage, but this characterisation is still a issue for me, as I'm sure it is with others. And that's why you'll still see some fans complain.

Right now, the hammer is intermingled with Magog, so I wouldn't take her word at face value

[Frontier]

I can understand your point of view, and you're right about Cates moving certain things in a positive direction, but...

Characterisation. We get the God of Hammers mocking the idea that Thor was ever a paragon of nobility, but classic Thor was! This would be one of his defining characteristics for me. He wasn't perfect, but he certainly tried. He was noble, honourable, and for want of a better word, classy. That's pretty important to me, morso than feats or powerlevels. I find modern Marvel's characterisation of Thor troublesome. And though you can argue that the God of Hammers is a villain and is biased or lying, I feel it's Cates' opinion coming through.

So yeah, Cates has tried to mitigate a lot of Aaron's damage, but this characterisation is still a issue for me, as I'm sure it is with others. And that's why you'll still see some fans complain.

And what always gets me is the double-standard that Jane gets to be that and no one bats an eye. Like her sole character flaw in the entire run is that she's just too darn heroic and noble. Meanwhile Aaron's just piling on the character flaws to Thor and making him seem less capable and more emotionally compromised than he's ever been.

I mean, I could point out how she sometimes seems a little self-righteous and condescending, especially if she thinks you're not the right kind of feminist (look at any interaction she has with She-Hulk) but I doubt actual Marvel writers see it that way.

[Username taken]

Jason Aaron is something of a "secular humanist" and its permeated his work. He's quite similar to Garth Ennis in that regard.

Even beyond Jane Thor, the whole thrust of Gorr's gripes seemed very "personal" to Aaron. Aaron is a pretty vocal atheist and has a clear problem with "godly" characters, it's part of why he ended up passing the hammer to Jane and practically writing her as "perfection" because that's where his personal politics lean towards.

Ultimately, it was a case of a writer's personal politics over-writing his work. It's the same with Coates on Black Panther and it's why the work became so controversial.

[Frontier]

Jason Aaron is something of a "secular humanist" and its permeated his work. He's quite similar to Garth Ennis in that regard.

Even beyond Jane Thor, the whole thrust of Gorr's gripes seemed very "personal" to Aaron. Aaron is a pretty vocal atheist and has a clear problem with "godly" characters, it's part of why he ended up passing the hammer to Jane and practically writing her as "perfection" because that's where his personal politics lean towards.

Ultimately, it was a case of a writer's personal politics over-writing his work. It's the same with Coates on Black Panther and it's why the work became so controversial.

Oh, I think it's undeniable that a lot of Aaron's personal feelings got channeled into his work on Thor and beyond. Just look at how he handled Khonsu in his Avengers run. He really doesn't like Gods .

So he had to make the most "human" Gods he could possibly write, with the actual human of them all becoming more of a paragon than the actual protagonist of the book.

But the whole whisper and "Gorr was right" was probably one of the least believable moments in the whole run.

[Thorson-98]

I can understand your point of view, and you're right about Cates moving certain things in a positive direction, but...

Characterisation. We get the God of Hammers mocking the idea that Thor was ever a paragon of nobility, but classic Thor was! This would be one of his defining characteristics for me. He wasn't perfect, but he certainly tried. He was noble, honourable, and for want of a better word, classy. That's pretty important to me, morso than feats or powerlevels. I find modern Marvel's characterisation of Thor troublesome. And though you can argue that the God of Hammers is a villain and is biased or lying, I feel it's Cates' opinion coming through.

So yeah, Cates has tried to mitigate a lot of Aaron's damage, but this characterisation is still a issue for me, as I'm sure it is with others. And that's why you'll still see some fans complain.

I see your point, believe me I do, that exact page you mentioned had me mad because Thor was noble af from the 60s all the way to the early 2000s, it was Matt Fraction who started the trend of writing Thor as a jerk, to be honest, all the characterisation problems Thor has right now can be traced back to Matt Fraction's run. Now, I am not saying his run was bad, his Thor was actually one of the most badasses and powerful we've had, and his stories were fine, but he was the one who completely changed Thor's noble and heroic personality and made him more egocentric and jerk-ish, Jason Aaron just doubled down on it and Cates is continuing the characterisation from the past 15 years, it would be jarring if he immediately started acting like his pre-Ragnarok self (not that anyone would complain tbh).

I get it man, I also want the noble Thor back, and I know we'll get him back someday soon, for now I am taking the good things I can get, and Cates' run has been very solid and certainly a massive step up from Aaron's.

[Anthony W]

So many stories that tear down these big, wise old figures like Odin or the Oan Guardians in DC make me think these later generation authors have some serious issues with their Boomer parents they're working through. XD

Just the Dads.

I see your point, believe me I do, that exact page you mentioned had me mad because Thor was noble af from the 60s all the way to the early 2000s, it was Matt Fraction who started the trend of writing Thor as a jerk, to be honest, all the characterisation problems Thor has right now can be traced back to Matt Fraction's run

Really?! So now I can blame him for ruining Thor as well as Hawkeye?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Jason Aaron is something of a "secular humanist" and its permeated his work. He's quite similar to Garth Ennis in that regard.

Even beyond Jane Thor, the whole thrust of Gorr's gripes seemed very "personal" to Aaron. Aaron is a pretty vocal atheist and has a clear problem with "godly" characters, it's part of why he ended up passing the hammer to Jane and practically writing her as "perfection" because that's where his personal politics lean towards.

Ultimately, it was a case of a writer's personal politics over-writing his work. It's the same with Coates on Black Panther and it's why the work became so controversial.

He's similar to Garth in that he has no problem hating the character he is writing and using them as his soapbox, regardless of logic. His lack of self-awareness is about equal too, as he writes Thor much akin to how atheists complain they have been treated by popular media.

I find it especially stupid really, as nothing about Thor really reflects how people worship. And his whole 'Gorr was right' doesn't work on so many levels. From being racist (to be clear, as harmless as racism can be, as it is directed against a fictional people not being a stand in for anything else), to being flat out wrong (how many worlds has Thor saved?)

[Frontier]

He's similar to Garth in that he has no problem hating the character he is writing and using them as his soapbox, regardless of logic. His lack of self-awareness is about equal too, as he writes Thor much akin to how atheists complain they have been treated by popular media.

I find it especially stupid really, as nothing about Thor really reflects how people worship. And his whole 'Gorr was right' doesn't work on so many levels. From being racist (to be clear, as harmless as racism can be, as it is directed against a fictional people not being a stand in for anything else), to being flat out wrong (how many worlds has Thor saved?)

And the whole idea that Thor would take something Nick Fury said at complete value because he has...Watcher powers, I guess? Made no sense.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And the whole idea that Thor would take something Nick Fury said at complete value because he has...Watcher powers, I guess? Made no sense.

Or that Nick would disable the most powerful hero on the planet just to win a pointless fight?

But worst was how the hammer was used to confirm Thor's depression. Not a good message.

"If you are suffering from depression, it's a reflection of poor character!"

So glad Endgame did away with that, even if we had to have fat Thor.

[charliehustle415]

And the whole idea that Thor would take something Nick Fury said at complete value because he has...Watcher powers, I guess? Made no sense.

I'm an unabashed Aaron Thor fanboy, but this reveal was pure trash and made no sense.

Thor has fought literal nightmares and monsters that would leave earth heroes in a puddle, yet Fury broke him with this bullshit - come on.

It would have been so much better if Fury actually learned the incantation and changed it. It would have made him look great and fits the actual character, and it would have given Thor an actual reason for not being able to lift the hammer.

Because then the true enemy of Thor would be human hubris, then Aaron could have brought in Roxxon and all of the others and shown Thor showing human villains why he is a God and they are mortal men

[Tendrin]

Defying authority is what protagonists do.

"Follow the rules!"

"Okay!"

Not the most thrilling story telling

Which is not to say it's not been overdone. Making it so Odin, the Guardians, etc can ONLY be wrong gets pretty old.

I never said the protagonist can't defy authority but your protagonist doesn't have to be wise as the actual *god who traded an eye for knowledge*. It's okay to let godly, all-knowing figures be godly and all-knowing sometimes.

[Agent Z]

Jason Aaron is something of a "secular humanist" and its permeated his work. He's quite similar to Garth Ennis in that regard.

Even beyond Jane Thor, the whole thrust of Gorr's gripes seemed very "personal" to Aaron. Aaron is a pretty vocal atheist and has a clear problem with "godly" characters, it's part of why he ended up passing the hammer to Jane and practically writing her as "perfection" because that's where his personal politics lean towards.

Ultimately, it was a case of a writer's personal politics over-writing his work. It's the same with Coates on Black Panther and it's why the work became so controversial.

Whatever one may feel about Aaron's Thor, I think we can say Ennis wouldn't be anymore flattering towards Jane than Odinson based on his work. He'd probably write her like Queen Maeve or the Female from The Boys.

He's similar to Garth in that he has no problem hating the character he is writing and using them as his soapbox, regardless of logic. His lack of self-awareness is about equal too, as he writes Thor much akin to how atheists complain they have been treated by popular media.

How do you mean?

[The Cool Thatguy]

How do you mean?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...llywoodAtheist

In fiction, characters don't believe in God(s) usually because of something bad/tragic/what have you. I don't think I've seen a fictional atheist yet who didn't believe in God, simply because they didn't believe/just don't.

Thus, Thor isn't a good man simply because he is good. He's good because he wants to wield the hammer. How many flashbacks did we see where Thor did some good deed, then immediately declaring that it should be enough to lift the hammer?

[Galan]

You and I are clearly reading different Thor books.

Aaron's Thor was emotionally and physically reliant on his hammer. To a degree that went miles beyond flanderization.

Cates' Thor, very much not so. He's kept his wits about him as it's malfunctioned, he surrendered it with impressively little fanfare to Cap, and was kind enough to let a random mortal have some fun with it, and tolerant enough to allow Tony to smack him with it.

In that same issue? Cates said and demonstrated that Thor's power was in him, not the hammer.

Cates' Thor is a 'Speak softly but carry a big stick' kind of guy. If Cates' plotting were as good as his voice for Thor, this series would be perfect.

The first issue, he wiped away Aaron's battle scarred Thor. He's actively demonstrated that Thor's power is in him, not the hammer, and just this issue, his birth mother was confirmed. So yeah, Aaron, he ain't

I don't view Thor's character and personality as defined by whatever his current relationship with Mjolnir is.
Cates' Thor is very clearly continuing the Thor characterization of Aaron and Fraction, this is not the noble classic Thor I want to see portrayed.