Thor Odinson, God of Thunder Appreciation 2022

[Username taken]

That's the biggest problem with Aaron is that he has an idea and just forces it into the story with no time to develop or properly use it. As The Cool said, the same problem is with the Hellfire kids. As a concept they make sense as foils for the Jean Grey School. The school is supposed to be a safe place where the kids can grow up without fighting and be the best version of themselves. Aka Good people and selfless heroes. The Hellfire are the opposite. They're evil kids who are selfish. Not a bad idea. Just executed horribly.

His Thor run is the same. What does it mean to be worthy and a good god? But his atheism is just too strong apparently and so the execution sucks. So every god is evil and a bastard even though in the MU we have plenty benevolent gods who want to do right by humans. And he is really blunt with it. In his Avengers every god/celestial is unworthy and a bastard who shouldn't be worshipped because they suck. (Which is going to be a problem when it's Agamotto turn to be written as a Strange fan). And the book will keep bringing this up. Constantly.

It's like with Odin. Traditionally, he can be a jerk but he is the god of wisdom. You would never get that from Aaron's Odin. He is an oaf. A buffoon. A fool. A blight onto the universe rather than the dude who did everything he can to stop Raganrok. How does this work with the other depictions? Who cares? He has a story to tell so it doesn't matter. His Avenger run is full of this type of logic. To the point it's not interesting but exhausting. Other writers have used the same themes as Aaron but better because they can focus and actually work on it unlike his brute force approach to story telling.

Agreed 100%.

[Mantis-Ray]

Considering Aaron's horrible treatment of Cyclops during his X-Men phase, especially his nonstop shilling of Wolverine as his better.

Its quite clear he is unable to write characters he is contemptuous of.

[Lukmendes]

I've compared his run to Joe Casey's Wildcats, which received high critical praise at the time, but has now been forgotten. That's because it had some impressively deep flaws (repetitive story telling, and, oh yeah, the supposed moral compass was a RAPIST) that people overlooked simply because it was trying something new.

I generally avoid falling on this trap by paying attention to what the story is doing instead of caring if I've seen that specific detail or story telling tactic or not.

I understand the appeal of seeing something "new", but "new" doesn't mean "good", it's a very important thing to keep in mind lol.

Couldn't gods be seen as representing the elite or ruling class who are oblivious to the harm their actions or inaction cause to others?

Aside from the difference between a god and someone who has a lot of money, gods tend to be actually helpful a lot of times, Thor in particular, so "Gorr was right" still wouldn't work.

Specially considering that "Gorr was right" can only work if you make Mjolnir into a sentient douchebag with an opinion.

His Thor run is the same. What does it mean to be worthy and a good god? But his atheism is just too strong apparently and so the execution sucks. So every god is evil and a bastard even though in the MU we have plenty benevolent gods who want to do right by humans. And he is really blunt with it. In his Avengers every god/celestial is unworthy and a bastard who shouldn't be worshipped because they suck. (Which is going to be a problem when it's Agamotto turn to be written as a Strange fan). And the book will keep bringing this up. Constantly.

The type of atheism Aaron seems to follow is that gods, maybe religions themselves, are worthless garbage.

Like yeah, I can understand having a problem with the concept of a god, but this isn't a story about a world that is anything remotely like real life, this is a world where gods actually exist, and their bad traits are very toned down compared to the myths in real life, so trying to say every god ever is bad just doesn't work considered what came before.

It's basically fanfiction quality to micharacterize characters like he did.

Considering Aaron's horrible treatment of Cyclops during his X-Men phase, especially his nonstop shilling of Wolverine as his better.

Its quite clear he is unable to write characters he is contemptuous of.

I mean, Cyke trains people from a deranged species so they can defend themselves when the entire planet wants to kill 'em, clearly that makes him as bad as he can be.

Though it is funny to think how both comics and cartoons had something called Wolverine and the X-Men, with Wolverine getting awkward ass kissing while basically mocking Cyke, and boy the cartoon WATXM removes all of Cyke's good traits, making him into little more than an incompetent manchild, probably his worst adaptation lol.

[Frontier]

I mean, Cyke trains people from a deranged species so they can defend themselves when the entire planet wants to kill 'em, clearly that makes him as bad as he can be.

Though it is funny to think how both comics and cartoons had something called Wolverine and the X-Men, with Wolverine getting awkward ass kissing while basically mocking Cyke, and boy the cartoon WATXM removes all of Cyke's good traits, making him into little more than an incompetent manchild, probably his worst adaptation lol.

Not that Logan was much better. He was pretty much a terrible leader for, like, 90% of the show.

[Lukmendes]

Not that Logan was much better.

Dude, no lol.

Cyke was useless as a character for the most part, I only remember him being useful in two episodes, in the one where they save Storm from Shadow King, and another where he goes save Jean, anywhere else he's incompetent and may actually get in the way, and in that Jean episode he for some reason decided to not tell Wolverine about the possibility that Emma found Jean.

It's also funny how they talk like he used to be worth a damn, and the flashback to the O5 era has him still sucking, I like to believe that he improved afterwards, and him becoming ass because he's Jean-less makes him go back to previous uselessness, but there's no indication that's the case.

Meanwhile, Wolverine is like, one of the three good guys who's consistently useful (Kitty and Xavier are the other two), and that's the case even if we don't count the episode where the X-Men were captured by random ninjas and Wolverine had to save their asses.

Beast could also count but he kinda stops existing in later episodes, maybe Bishop counts too? I'm not sure...

He was pretty much a terrible leader for, like, 90% of the show.

He was definitely bad by the first episodes, to the point Bobby points it out that him being a leader was a bad idea (Even more so compared to Beast), and if Magneto was in a bad mood, the team would've been killed by him since Wolverine got all emotional about having to save Xavier.

I don't remember the rest much, but after this he improved, though I don't remember how good he was at it, last episodes I remember he gave Beast good orders at least.

Point is though, WATXM Cyke is a dumb character, and an even worse adaptation, meanwhile Wolverine is one of the few characters who are consistently useful, and his ass is covered in lip marks, specially Xavier's.

[Frontier]

Dude, no lol.

Cyke was useless as a character for the most part, I only remember him being useful in two episodes, in the one where they save Storm from Shadow King, and another where he goes save Jean, anywhere else he's incompetent and may actually get in the way, and in that Jean episode he for some reason decided to not tell Wolverine about the possibility that Emma found Jean.

It's also funny how they talk like he used to be worth a damn, and the flashback to the O5 era has him still sucking, I like to believe that he improved afterwards, and him becoming ass because he's Jean-less makes him go back to previous uselessness, but there's no indication that's the case.

Meanwhile, Wolverine is like, one of the three good guys who's consistently useful (Kitty and Xavier are the other two), and that's the case even if we don't count the episode where the X-Men were captured by random ninjas and Wolverine had to save their asses.

Beast could also count but he kinda stops existing in later episodes, maybe Bishop counts too? I'm not sure...

He was definitely bad by the first episodes, to the point Bobby points it out that him being a leader was a bad idea (Even more so compared to Beast), and if Magneto was in a bad mood, the team would've been killed by him since Wolverine got all emotional about having to save Xavier.

I don't remember the rest much, but after this he improved, though I don't remember how good he was at it, last episodes I remember he gave Beast good orders at least.

Point is though, WATXM Cyke is a dumb character, and an even worse adaptation, meanwhile Wolverine is one of the few characters who are consistently useful, and his ass is covered in lip marks, specially Xavier's.

Oh, I'm not saying they didn't screw up Cyclops or belittle him unecessarilly, just that Logan made leadership mistakes practically every episode. There were, maybe, 2-3 episodes in the entire first season where I feel like he actually acted like a solid leader and even in the finale he bailed on the team to go solo (which, admittedly, kind of saved the day, but still...)

It was even going to get worse in season 2 where he would team-up with the Brotherhood when the X-Men won't go along with his plan and it ends up backfiring spectacularly.

[kilderkin]

I generally avoid falling on this trap by paying attention to what the story is doing instead of caring if I've seen that specific detail or story telling tactic or not.

I understand the appeal of seeing something "new", but "new" doesn't mean "good", it's a very important thing to keep in mind lol.



Aside from the difference between a god and someone who has a lot of money, gods tend to be actually helpful a lot of times, Thor in particular, so "Gorr was right" still wouldn't work.

Specially considering that "Gorr was right" can only work if you make Mjolnir into a sentient douchebag with an opinion.



The type of atheism Aaron seems to follow is that gods, maybe religions themselves, are worthless garbage.

Like yeah, I can understand having a problem with the concept of a god, but this isn't a story about a world that is anything remotely like real life, this is a world where gods actually exist, and their bad traits are very toned down compared to the myths in real life, so trying to say every god ever is bad just doesn't work considered what came before.

It's basically fanfiction quality to micharacterize characters like he did.



I mean, Cyke trains people from a deranged species so they can defend themselves when the entire planet wants to kill 'em, clearly that makes him as bad as he can be.

Though it is funny to think how both comics and cartoons had something called Wolverine and the X-Men, with Wolverine getting awkward ass kissing while basically mocking Cyke, and boy the cartoon WATXM removes all of Cyke's good traits, making him into little more than an incompetent manchild, probably his worst adaptation lol.

Totally see what you mean in regards JA on god's

Totally agree

[kilderkin]

Agreed 100%.

Totally agree with this too

[Lukmendes]

Oh, I'm not saying they didn't screw up Cyclops or belittle him unecessarilly, just that Logan made leadership mistakes practically every episode. There were, maybe, 2-3 episodes in the entire first season where I feel like he actually acted like a solid leader and even in the finale he bailed on the team to go solo (which, admittedly, kind of saved the day, but still...)

In the final episodes he did give 'em some orders before leaving (Telling them to investigate the area where Sentinels were launched to see if there's a way to call 'em back in episode 25), so he didn't abandon 'em at least, and considering that Phoenix is what caused the bad future, and he was going there to help out Jean, yeah, that was sensible.

It is dumb how "Wolverine saves the day" completely relies on Emma's powers being nerfed though, 'cause earlier in the season she was using her diamond form, and a Sentinel stepped on her and she went right through the foot without even moving, so she has super strength in that cartoon too, but that's completely ignored in the final episode, where her diamond form can't break through some metal bars lol.

It was even going to get worse in season 2 where he would team-up with the Brotherhood when the X-Men won't go along with his plan and it ends up backfiring spectacularly.

What plan was it?

The X-Men refusing can work well enough, but if there's no good reason why teaming up with Brotherhood is a better alternative, then uh, yeah...

[Agent Z]

Given that, in general, the ruling elite rule with money, and are just as human as anyone else, I'd say no.

Why would that matter? Wasn't Aaron's point, poorly thought out it might have been, that gods aren't any better than mortals?

[Mantis-Ray]

Why would that matter? Wasn't Aaron's point, poorly thought out it might have been, that gods aren't any better than mortals?

Honestly my biggest issue with the whole Gods aren't better than mortals is, who cares?

So Gods aren't better, doesn't mean mortals are any good. We're ignorant, we're violent, we're stupid, we're pathetic. When Thor said "Gods don't deserve us" I wanted to tell him "Thor its okay, we don't deserve anything."

The pro-mortal wank gets pretty annoying especially since the only difference between a God and a mortal is scale in power. And plenty of people espouse themselves Gods simply for having greater power than someone else. Mortals are petty little shits.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Why would that matter? Wasn't Aaron's point, poorly thought out it might have been, that gods aren't any better than mortals?

Was it, though?

I never saw anything to indicate that, especially given how he wrote Jane. And it wasn't as if Gorr were trying to kill mortals too

[kilderkin]

Was it, though?

I never saw anything to indicate that, especially given how he wrote Jane. And it wasn't as if Gorr were trying to kill mortals too

Totally agree

His run was littered with comments of Jane being better with mjolnir, or it working better for her than Thor

Iirc there was an epitaph to her that read 'to she who used you best' ...OWTTE

It was never remotely balanced imo

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Why would that matter? Wasn't Aaron's point, poorly thought out it might have been, that gods aren't any better than mortals?

No. His point as we see repeated in his Avenger's run is that the gods suck and humans should stop worshipping them. We don't need them and we shouldn't depend on them because they aren't helpful and neglectful at best and actively malicious at worst. Look at Avengers 1 million, the most protective members and the good members are the human members. The gods (Odin) are boorish, jerks. The Phoenix is a parasite. Moon Knight criticizes man's dependence on the gods and so on. In Aaron's comic view every god is afraid of being judged because they all are not worthy as he restated in his Avenger's issue with the Celestial.

The question went from what does it mean to be a good god and worthy to all gods are bad or unworthy except maybe Thor.

[Username taken]

The thing about Jason Aaron is he's a very, VERY good writer when he's on point.

The problem is his atheism is from an earlier brand that's not popular anymore. It's the late 90s to 2000s "edgy atheism" that guys like Richard Dawkins (anyone remember him) made popular and a lot of creators wore as badges of honor back in the day. I've mentioned him many times but Garth Ennis writes the same exact way when dealing with religion.

The problem is when dealing with the Marvel universe, it's an entirely different situation. The Marvel gods are "extradimensional beings" that were worshipped as gods (at least that was the classic handbook of the Marvel universe explanation). The gods in Marvel are extremely active in the universe and some are good and some are bad. There's really no way to draw a direct parallel between what's happening in the Marvel universe and real-world religious beliefs. That's why Aaron has to keep retconning stuff to justify his stories (his depiction of Odin being a prime example).

I think as talented as Aaron is, he should restrict his personal beliefs to his independent work. Some of his ideas don't really mesh well with the existing Marvel universe.