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  1. #316
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    https://twitter.com/richieterrones/s...GsEytXMHP2X84g


    Canon and on panel. I’ve been saying this for years!!!
    It's been decades since I read that mini but wow I totally forgot they said she way the daughter of the PF WAAAY back in 1999.

  2. #317
    Astonishing Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    https://twitter.com/richieterrones/s...GsEytXMHP2X84g


    Canon and on panel. I’ve been saying this for years!!!
    so Hope and Rachel are the same genetic material manipulated by the Phoenix Force?

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    https://twitter.com/richieterrones/s...GsEytXMHP2X84g


    Canon and on panel. I’ve been saying this for years!!!
    That's cute but you need to leave Twitter alone... I'll post the full page to provide more detail for the forum.


    Now, John Francis Moore (writer) was obviously into fan-fic when he wrote "Phoenix Askani Rising" because it's a complete contradiction to established cannon which threw up oh so many red flags for me -- So, let's start with Uncanny X-Men Minus One, shall we? In Uncanny X-Men Minus One, it was established that Sanctity was actually Tanya Trask, born in the 20th century, whose time travel power was out of control till Rachel brought her to the Askani future. So, how can she already be there as a little girl?


    Last edited by Micabe; 08-10-2022 at 12:48 AM.

  4. #319
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    Moreover, it's been established that the Earth-811 timeline never encountered Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, and as seen in Uncanny X-Men #199 -- Rachel didn't acquire the Phoenix Force until she accidentally back-timed to the Earth-616 timeline and touched the Holoempath Crystal that belonged to her alternate timeline mother, Jean Grey/Phoenix of Earth-616.


    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    so Hope and Rachel are the same genetic material manipulated by the Phoenix Force?
    No... Hope's true surname is Spalding and her mother was Louise Spalding.


    Nuff said!
    Last edited by Micabe; 08-10-2022 at 12:48 AM.

  5. #320
    Astonishing Member Exodus's Avatar
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    but do we really know if the Phoenix Force has used Louise Spaldings genetic material to create Hope? Maybe she was only the "broodmare" and the Phoenix Force needed a human womb.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    but do we really know if the Phoenix Force has used Louise Spaldings genetic material to create Hope? Maybe she was only the "broodmare" and the Phoenix Force needed a human womb.

  7. #322
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    That's cute but you need to leave Twitter alone... I'll post the full page to provide more detail for the forum.


    Now, John Francis Moore (writer) was obviously into fan-fic when he wrote "Phoenix Askani Rising" because it's a complete contradiction to established cannon which threw up oh so many red flags for me -- So, let's start with Uncanny X-Men Minus One, shall we? In Uncanny X-Men Minus One, it was established that Sanctity was actually Tanya Trask, born in the 20th century, whose time travel power was out of control till Rachel brought her to the Askani future. So, how can she already be there as a little girl?
    So I'm going to pushback on this "fan-fic" commentary as 'X-Men: Phoenix' is a canon series (please note the series is called X-Men: Phoenix and not 'Phoenix Askani Rising' which is the title of issue 3 of that series). Meaning it is fully part of the X-universe and acknowledged to being part of X-lore. You're right that the writer (and the editors since they failed to find and fix it) didn't read or reference Uncanny X-Men minus 1 regarding Tanya. But that happens, sadly, all the time in comics. But one error does not make it non-canon. You say there are multiple red flags. What else? In this story is a red flag for you, other than what I'm going to counter below?


    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    Moreover, it's been established that the Earth-811 timeline never encountered Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, and as seen in Uncanny X-Men #199 -- Rachel didn't acquire the Phoenix Force until she accidentally back-timed to the Earth-616 timeline and touched the Holoempath Crystal that belonged to her alternate timeline mother, Jean Grey/Phoenix of Earth-616..


    Nuff said!
    So we have discussed that AT LENGTH AND AT NASEUM here on the Rachel thread over the past few years, so the information is out there. But you are incorrect. Jean Grey from 811 did become Phoenix and it's stated in the issue you are citing moreover. In Uncanny X-Men 199 Rachel explicitly says that in her timeline Jean did not give into the temptation and transform into Dark Phoenix fully. The key difference in this instance was that instead of pushing Jean away like her father did in the Dark Phoenix saga, the Greys rallied behind Jean and embraced her. That simple change in how John, Sarah, and Elaine reacted to Jean changed that piece of her trajectory.* Note we don't have a full account of what happened after these events other than Jean lives, is Phoenix, has Rachel, dies in a explosion, and becomes WPotC.

    Now, aside from that, we have the excerpts and images from Uncanny X-Men 140.5 "Prelude to A Future Past" which was a canon story written by Chris Claremont that was published in the Marvel Made: Chris Claremont Premiere Bundle in 2020. This story is canon. I'll keep saying that for reference. The gist of the story follows a ragtag of X-Men who have captured a hounded Rachel Summers (again) who has been infected with Nanosentinels to infect and kill other mutants. Kurt (who it turns out never died), Bloody Bess, Sage, Bishop (not our Bishop but still confusing), and Kid Iron Man take it upon themselves to free Rachel from the nanosentinels. While going into Rachel's mind to find a way to make her fight back when they discover this:

    tumblr_1b4a5773b8e1a3d6c57601ddefca0460_070a9bcd_1280.jpg

    tumblr_c498393500fb111c6d445ce5aa64e40f_9b3af078_1280.jpg

    tumblr_6cb74b75d55d505191c7e018874ecef4_fa43e501_1280.jpg

    So we see, again, that 811-Jean was in fact Phoenix and became White Phoenix of the Crown upon her death by Mastermind. Proving that she is the daughter of the Phoenix and has a bond with the Phoenix, moreso than many of it's other hosts and makes her Thor's stepsister.

    https://star-summer.tumblr.com/post/...earth-811-when

    'Nuff Said

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    but do we really know if the Phoenix Force has used Louise Spaldings genetic material to create Hope? Maybe she was only the "broodmare" and the Phoenix Force needed a human womb.
    We don't know really. We know that the Phoenix Force connected itself to Hope at birth but we don't know more than that. She has never been called the child of the Phoenix as Rachel has, partly because audience reception of the potential of her being Jean reborn was wildly negative. They left it that she had a connection and severed it with Wanda at the end of AvX.
    Last edited by Askani's Flame; 08-10-2022 at 12:35 PM.

  8. #323
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    spoilers:
    Askani appears in a panel briefly in Judgment Day #2 so she (and maybe the other Knights) is back on Krakoa. She's in her KoX costume which I think looks lovely by Schiti.
    end of spoilers
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
    Krakoa, Arakko, and Otherworld forever!

  9. #324
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    So we have discussed that AT LENGTH AND AT NASEUM here on the Rachel thread over the past few years, so the information is out there. But you are incorrect. Jean Grey from 811 did become Phoenix and it's stated in the issue you are citing moreover. In Uncanny X-Men 199 Rachel explicitly says that in her timeline Jean did not give into the temptation and transform into Dark Phoenix fully. The key difference in this instance was that instead of pushing Jean away like her father did in the Dark Phoenix saga, the Greys rallied behind Jean and embraced her. Therefore she never fought the X-Men, required sustenance from the sun in a different galaxy, never killed the D'Bari, and never had to battle the Shi'ar Imperial Guard or kill herself. That simple change in how John, Sarah, and Elaine reacted to Jean changed that piece of her trajectory.
    Yeah, except.....the timeline of events is wrong.

    When Phoenix first turned into Dark Phoenix, she fought the X-Men. Then, after defeating them, DP flew into space, created a space warp with her own powers and flung herself deep within the Shi'ar Galaxy, which is why she needed fuel and ate a sun. Then, after powering up and defeating one of Lilandra's grand fleet ships, DP decided to return to Earth.

    DP returned to the home she remembered. This is when Prof Grey grew angry at DP, with Elaine and Sarah fearing her. The love was there but buried under fear and anger.

    So, are you saying on E-811, these events did not happen? Or they were re-ordered somehow? I am confused, lol.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."


    Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!

  10. #325
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Yeah, except.....the timeline of events is wrong.

    When Phoenix first turned into Dark Phoenix, she fought the X-Men. Then, after defeating them, DP flew into space, created a space warp with her own powers and flung herself deep within the Shi'ar Galaxy, which is why she needed fuel and ate a sun. Then, after powering up and defeating one of Lilandra's grand fleet ships, DP decided to return to Earth.

    DP returned to the home she remembered. This is when Prof Grey grew angry at DP, with Elaine and Sarah fearing her. The love was there but buried under fear and anger.

    So, are you saying on E-811, these events did not happen? Or they were re-ordered somehow? I am confused, lol.
    Lol I am now too. I remembered it wrong, I forgot D'Bari happened before the Greys. Honestly, now that you've reminded me of the right sequence of events, it seems there is not a clean answer to what really transpired with Jean 811 in regards to her Phoenix-Dark Phoenix stuff. All we definitively know from Rachel is that the turning point was that the Greys embraced her. No one talks about what happened after other than she lives, is still Phoenix, marries Scott, has Rachel, and dies in an explosion. It wasn't til the most recent 140.5 do we learn that Jean becomes the WPotC and keeps part of her power and PF in Rachel to protect her. I'll amend my above statement!

  11. #326
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Lol I am now too. I remembered it wrong, I forgot D'Bari happened before the Greys. Honestly, now that you've reminded me of the right sequence of events, it seems there is not a clean answer to what really transpired with Jean 811 in regards to her Phoenix-Dark Phoenix stuff. All we definitively know from Rachel is that the turning point was that the Greys embraced her. No one talks about what happened after other than she lives, is still Phoenix, marries Scott, has Rachel, and dies in an explosion. It wasn't til the most recent 140.5 do we learn that Jean becomes the WPotC and keeps part of her power and PF in Rachel to protect her. I'll amend my above statement!
    Thanks for helping to fill in the gaps!---there is sooo much with theses stories that it takes more than 1 human brain to store it all, lol!

    Don't worry about fixing the previous statement---I was just asking because I remembered it differently. Thought maybe the PF was fracturing my memories, too!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."


    Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    So I'm going to pushback on this "fan-fic" commentary as 'X-Men: Phoenix' is a canon series (please note the series is called X-Men: Phoenix and not 'Phoenix Askani Rising' which is the title of issue 3 of that series). Meaning it is fully part of the X-universe and acknowledged to being part of X-lore. You're right that the writer (and the editors since they failed to find and fix it) didn't read or reference Uncanny X-Men minus 1 regarding Tanya. But that happens, sadly, all the time in comics. But one error does not make it non-canon. You say there are multiple red flags. What else? In this story is a red flag for you, other than what I'm going to counter below?




    So we have discussed that AT LENGTH AND AT NASEUM here on the Rachel thread over the past few years, so the information is out there. But you are incorrect. Jean Grey from 811 did become Phoenix and it's stated in the issue you are citing moreover. In Uncanny X-Men 199 Rachel explicitly says that in her timeline Jean did not give into the temptation and transform into Dark Phoenix fully. The key difference in this instance was that instead of pushing Jean away like her father did in the Dark Phoenix saga, the Greys rallied behind Jean and embraced her. That simple change in how John, Sarah, and Elaine reacted to Jean changed that piece of her trajectory.* Note we don't have a full account of what happened after these events other than Jean lives, is Phoenix, has Rachel, dies in a explosion, and becomes WPotC.

    Now, aside from that, we have the excerpts and images from Uncanny X-Men 140.5 "Prelude to A Future Past" which was a canon story written by Chris Claremont that was published in the Marvel Made: Chris Claremont Premiere Bundle in 2020. This story is canon. I'll keep saying that for reference. The gist of the story follows a ragtag of X-Men who have captured a hounded Rachel Summers (again) who has been infected with Nanosentinels to infect and kill other mutants. Kurt (who it turns out never died), Bloody Bess, Sage, Bishop (not our Bishop but still confusing), and Kid Iron Man take it upon themselves to free Rachel from the nanosentinels. While going into Rachel's mind to find a way to make her fight back when they discover this:

    tumblr_1b4a5773b8e1a3d6c57601ddefca0460_070a9bcd_1280.jpg

    tumblr_c498393500fb111c6d445ce5aa64e40f_9b3af078_1280.jpg

    tumblr_6cb74b75d55d505191c7e018874ecef4_fa43e501_1280.jpg

    So we see, again, that 811-Jean was in fact Phoenix and became White Phoenix of the Crown upon her death by Mastermind. Proving that she is the daughter of the Phoenix and has a bond with the Phoenix, moreso than many of it's other hosts and makes her Thor's stepsister.

    https://star-summer.tumblr.com/post/...earth-811-when

    'Nuff Said


    We don't know really. We know that the Phoenix Force connected itself to Hope at birth but we don't know more than that. She has never been called the child of the Phoenix as Rachel has, partly because audience reception of the potential of her being Jean reborn was wildly negative. They left it that she had a connection and severed it with Wanda at the end of AvX.
    See. I was right there with you until right about here
    Last edited by Micabe; 08-10-2022 at 01:00 PM.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I don't think Krakoa was in existence at this point. I only say that because Apocalypse was back to running the world via the desert and most of the base of operations for the Order of Witnesses was in Antarctica and the OG Askani Clan were nomads with Rachel trying to disrupt and destroy Apocalypse.
    Krakoa has been retconned into the Askani Timeline. When the timeline was originally presented, it's existence was predicated by Apocalypse's survival. His death in The Search for Cyclops erased the future and we got warring futures that replaced it (an interesting arc in Cable) while also displacing Rachel. Cable brought Rachel back to the present but something of her survived when he himself restored his future in Peter Mulligan's Apocalypse arc.

    How do we know it got restored? Mr. Sinister using Gambit to tell Cable about "One Minute Before Dawn" - in his own childhood, Cable knew what Hope Summers meant and thus her birth indicated to him that the golden age she heralded in his timeline (as opposed to the pain of Bishop's timeline) could come about if he played it safe.

    We last saw the Askani Timeline in Brisson's X-Force run, where Rachel merged with the remnant of Mother Askani. A big part about that arc was that Kid Cable came back to ensure that the Askani Timeline would occur and where he leaves it at the end of his run solidifies it as the future. From that point to X Lives and X Deaths, there was no time travel except for in the Cable series, which ends with him returning to his place in the Askani Timeline after deciding not to erase it.

    Thus, while Krakoa was not originally a part of the Askani Timeline, it has become a part of the past via retcons. Truthfully, given how far in the future that timeline is set, there's no reason all of this can't have occured in the past and so there is so much variety with it. We have cool enemies like Sinsear, factions like the High Lords, we have unique cities like Ebonshire, Applecrust or New Canaan. In the first issue of Cable, I believe Fitzroy was even an easter egg. It's like steampunk mixed with Mad Max mixed with Star Wars. There's a lot of potential and I think it'd be pretty cool to see more of Rachel's time exploring that world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Lol I am now too. I remembered it wrong, I forgot D'Bari happened before the Greys. Honestly, now that you've reminded me of the right sequence of events, it seems there is not a clean answer to what really transpired with Jean 811 in regards to her Phoenix-Dark Phoenix stuff. All we definitively know from Rachel is that the turning point was that the Greys embraced her. No one talks about what happened after other than she lives, is still Phoenix, marries Scott, has Rachel, and dies in an explosion. It wasn't til the most recent 140.5 do we learn that Jean becomes the WPotC and keeps part of her power and PF in Rachel to protect her. I'll amend my above statement!
    Honestly, it's even possible that Jean Grey embraced the holoempathic matrix in the 811 Timeline when the Avengers and FF presented it to her and that let her merged with the Phoenix and the Greys returned and this time they didn't reject her.

  14. #329
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    spoilers:
    Askani appears in a panel briefly in Judgment Day #2 so she (and maybe the other Knights) is back on Krakoa. She's in her KoX costume which I think looks lovely by Schiti.
    end of spoilers
    https://twitter.com/616rachelsummer/...74504648810496

  15. #330
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drexelhand View Post
    Honestly, it's even possible that Jean Grey embraced the holoempathic matrix in the 811 Timeline when the Avengers and FF presented it to her and that let her merged with the Phoenix and the Greys returned and this time they didn't reject her.
    Honestly, it is not possible on E-811, given the fact that if Jean did not fight the Shi'ar Imperial Guards (and die), then there would be no Shi'ar Holoempathic Matrix Crystal given by Lilandra to the Greys as a remembrance of their daughter.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]

    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."


    Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!

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