Booyah!: Cyborg Appreciation 2022

[Sodam Yat]

Thank you! If Cyborg was going to be a part of the big seven he should’ve had a solo right out the gate. But then again I always suspected that Cyborg was put on the league so that John’s could have one Black person on the roster without using John Stewart, since Johns is a Hal Jordan fanboy.

I agree that it would've been nice to give Cyborg a solo from the start. But I don't think it's as easy as it seems, though. I think DC was very hesitant, because they were unsure whether the solo can last around the New 52 relaunch. Cyborg is part of the big seven and was promoted as an A-list character. DC won't have a good image if his book gets cancelled prematurely, compared to the other Big 7 characters. So instead, the New 52 JL centered around Cyborg's origin to build him up so they can finally give him a solo book with a top tier artist. So they were pretty much walking on eggshells. And yes, I believe Geoff Johns put Cyborg on the Justice League so John Stewart doesn't get the spot.

[skyvolt2000]

I agree that it would've been nice to give Cyborg a solo from the start. But I don't think it's as easy as it seems, though. I think DC was very hesitant, because they were unsure whether the solo can last around the New 52 relaunch. Cyborg is part of the big seven and was promoted as an A-list character. DC won't have a good image if his book gets cancelled prematurely, compared to the other Big 7 characters. So instead, the New 52 JL centered around Cyborg's origin to build him up so they can finally give him a solo book with a top tier artist. So they were pretty much walking on eggshells. And yes, I believe Geoff Johns put Cyborg on the Justice League so John Stewart doesn't get the spot.

They gave Michael Holt a solo by a writer so many hated due to how Ryan Cho was killed in Titans.

Nobody asked for I Vampire-a franchise that nobody touched since the 80s.

Nobody asked for these guys either G.I. Combat, Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E. & Grifter. Grifter wasn't ordered around here outside of issue 1.

Cyborg's resume said a solo at the start would have been SMART.

[Johnny]

If DC editorial decides to quit moving forward and stop living in the past sure.

They will always keep the faceplate as part of his "costume", but one can hope they will finally get smart enough to not have him wear it in his "normal" look like he did during Semper's run. But for that to happen he needs to have a "normal" look again when he's not fighting villains.

[Sodam Yat]

They gave Michael Holt a solo by a writer so many hated due to how Ryan Cho was killed in Titans.

Nobody asked for I Vampire-a franchise that nobody touched since the 80s.

Nobody asked for these guys either G.I. Combat, Frankenstein, Agent of S.H.A.D.E. & Grifter. Grifter wasn't ordered around here outside of issue 1.

Cyborg's resume said a solo at the start would have been SMART.

Those characters were not at the level of Cyborg's status as being promoted as a top tier a-list character and one of the co-founders of the Justice League. It would've looked smart, but very risky for a character that's being promoted as an a-lister. Mr Terrific lasted only 8 issues, which didn't even have 12 issues. Imagine if something like that happened with a promoted a-lister like Cyborg at the start of the New 52. It would've made a bigger impact and not look good with DC's image. You can take bigger risk with those kind of characters. But with big characters like Cyborg, it really hurts their investment with the character. I really think that's why they didn't give him a solo from the start. I don't think it was an easy business decision.

[skyvolt2000]

Those characters were not at the level of Cyborg's status as being promoted as a top tier a-list character and one of the co-founders of the Justice League. It would've looked smart, but very risky for a character that's being promoted as an a-lister. Mr Terrific lasted only 8 issues, which didn't even have 12 issues. Imagine if something like that happened with a promoted a-lister like Cyborg at the start of the New 52. It would've made a bigger impact and not look good with DC's image. You can take bigger risk with those kind of characters. But with big characters like Cyborg, it really hurts their investment with the character. I really think that's why they didn't give him a solo from the start. I don't think it was an easy business decision.

Yet they had no trouble letting Static be a trainwreck by Harvey Richards. That was impact on DC's image after how badly Milestone got treated during McDuffie's JLA.

You want him to be A list-you show. A list is not something that happens over night. It's a work in progress. You make sacrifices.

Batwing lasted longer than it should have as it had Moon Girl numbers under Luke Fox.
Moon Girl who LEAD the way to being Marvel WORST ongoing title seller. Made it to issue 46.
Squirrel Girl right above her-made to issue 50.
Shuri and Riri with the two above were Marvel's worst sellers.

All these books outsold who??? CYBORG.

Show that effort. If it means Carol Danvers him with restart after restart-FINE. If you did it enough times we might have Cyborg #100 by now.

DC screamed A list NOT fans. So it's NOT on fans to back up that claim.

A list means NO Harvey Richards as editor. David Walker is not doing the book-it falls on JOHNS and the rest of his A list gang. David Walker nor Redjack should do in a few issues that John s could NOT do in over 50 with Cyborg of John Stewart.

That speaks way more than an 8 issue Cyborg run failing.

[Jabare]

these Cyborg threads have had the same tone for 7 years and it's clear why

Cyborg actually got an impressive moment for a milisecond but the comic issue barely pays attention to it.

[LukeCagefan]

They will always keep the faceplate as part of his "costume", but one can hope they will finally get smart enough to not have him wear it in his "normal" look like he did during Semper's run. But for that to happen he needs to have a "normal" look again when he's not fighting villains.

What happened to his ability to switch back and forth under Semper?

[Johnny]

What happened to his ability to switch back and forth under Semper?

Good question. I'm not sure if editorial cares about answering it though.

[sifighter]

What happened to his ability to switch back and forth under Semper?

My personal head canon because his appearance has changed from DCyou, Rebirth, to now is that he still has the ability to change his appearance it’s just he’s comfortable with who he is after so long as Cyborg. You really think that T on his waist is just permanently there right now?

So for me it’s not “oh how I hate being Cyborg, why can’t I always be my human form but the world needs a hero” but instead “I’ve been Cyborg for a decade or two now and it’s changed my life for the better, with the world celebrating me and The great friends I made on the way, so I appreciate this form and it’s part of who I am.”

Really the only person he should be fully transforming for is his father, kind of a I’m still your son moment you know.

[thefinalguy]

My personal head canon because his appearance has changed from DCyou, Rebirth, to now is that he still has the ability to change his appearance it’s just he’s comfortable with who he is after so long as Cyborg. You really think that T on his waist is just permanently there right now?

So for me it’s not “oh how I hate being Cyborg, why can’t I always be my human form but the world needs a hero” but instead “I’ve been Cyborg for a decade or two now and it’s changed my life for the better, with the world celebrating me and The great friends I made on the way, so I appreciate this form and it’s part of who I am.”

Really the only person he should be fully transforming for is his father, kind of a I’m still your son moment you know.

Even still currently he's mostly Cyborg when everything but part of his face is covered.

His first design at least showed portions of skin, it's just off-putting and barely Cyborg-looking.

I do think being able to switch at will almost undermines the point (although feels more secret identity-ish) but I'd rather opt for something less robot-like if that's never gonna be explored. Because where its at now is not an appealing design at all.

[BradleyFan]

I agree that it would've been nice to give Cyborg a solo from the start. But I don't think it's as easy as it seems, though. I think DC was very hesitant, because they were unsure whether the solo can last around the New 52 relaunch. Cyborg is part of the big seven and was promoted as an A-list character. DC won't have a good image if his book gets cancelled prematurely, compared to the other Big 7 characters. So instead, the New 52 JL centered around Cyborg's origin to build him up so they can finally give him a solo book with a top tier artist. So they were pretty much walking on eggshells. And yes, I believe Geoff Johns put Cyborg on the Justice League so John Stewart doesn't get the spot.

Honestly, when New 52 first came out, it was the most popular thing in the comic industry. I mean, Aquaman was outselling a lot of Marvel comic books. If they had given Cyborg a solo comic from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that it would've sold at least decently. And even if the optics for a Cyborg solo going under prematurely are bad, the fact that it took DC comics two whole years to get Cyborg a comic are even worse optics.

Not to mention the constant interference the editors did with the writers, the constant need to push Cyborg to the background (even though he was supposed to be an A-lister) and the obsession with making sure that Cyborg's personal world (his city of Detroit, supporting characters, history) never got any development in his book. I mean we went through 3 different writers for the character and there wasn't any link between the three Cyborg runs. Walker, Sempter and Wolfman might as well have been writing for three different characters.

And it wasn't for lack of trying. Semper wanted to try and have some continuity between what Walker did, and what he was doing. But DC editorial said did not want that. And what Wolfman came aboard, pretty much anything Walker or Semper did in their runs was thrown out the window and burned.

How can anyone get behind a character that is so inconsistent even the writers can't agree on a unifying mythos? And then you take this mess and put him on the roster of your premier team (made up of entirely white, able-bodied, people) during ongoing discussions about representation and inclusion. Thereby drawing even more attention to how screwed up the whole situation is?

What was DC even thinking at that point? Do people honestly not remember any of that?

[Stanlos]

I think the only thought was "I want Hal as GL and I don't want to be called prejudice so I will put the castrated 10% organic man with melanated skin and no genitals so I can dodge that bullet, ostensibly anyway"

[skyvolt2000]

I think where Johns and DiDio went wrong is that the people doing the Justice League animated show actually cared about quality representation, while that seemed to be a much lower priority for Johns and DiDio. Had they actually been good at that sort of thing, it's within the realm of possibility that they could have won people over with Cyborg the way the animated show won people over with John Stewart despite the backlash he endured from many comics fans. Rather, Cyborg came across as a depressing, out of place afterthought who was present simply to check a box off. You're not going to win over a lot of people with that type of showing.

The first pitch for that cartoon had Hal and Black Lightning on the roster and then it got changed to John and Hawkgirl.

I think the only thought was "I want Hal as GL and I don't want to be called prejudice so I will put the castrated 10% organic man with melanated skin and no genitals so I can dodge that bullet, ostensibly anyway"

If you wanted to avoid that-we had Vixen, Michael Holt, BLoodwynd, Bronze Tiger and could have dug up Herald since Cyborg was in the background so much.

[LukeCagefan]

I think the only thought was "I want Hal as GL and I don't want to be called prejudice so I will put the castrated 10% organic man with melanated skin and no genitals so I can dodge that bullet, ostensibly anyway"

I agree to this

[LukeCagefan]

I don't think anyone who can make enough of a difference has ever really been in his corner. Johns and DiDio acted like they were, but I tend to believe what was mentioned earlier in the discussion. Because a standard had been set, they felt they needed diversity (a black person) on the Justice League, but they didn't want John Stewart, so they chose Cyborg. For the record, I don't think that is anything to be ashamed of or anything that warrants defending, so there is no need for anyone to be defensive about that. They have their character preferences just like the rest of us, and that's fair. Also, for the record, I can believe that Cyborg's appearance in an iteration of Super Friends did influence the decision, but to a much lesser degree than simply not wanting to use John. Or, if you want to look at it another way, wanting to use Hal as Green Lantern.

I think where Johns and DiDio went wrong is that the people doing the Justice League animated show actually cared about quality representation, while that seemed to be a much lower priority for Johns and DiDio. Had they actually been good at that sort of thing, it's within the realm of possibility that they could have won people over with Cyborg the way the animated show won people over with John Stewart despite the backlash he endured from many comics fans. Rather, Cyborg came across as a depressing, out of place afterthought who was present simply to check a box off. You're not going to win over a lot of people with that type of showing.

Regarding the shipping, I also thought that Raven was already paired up with Beast Boy, so no matter how you cut that situation, you can potentially run into clashes with other fans. Once again, leaving Cyborg the strange odd man out

Again, the best way to overcome that sort of thing is to bulldoze through it and be bold. Hence why I would pair him up with Starfire. Some fans wouldn't like that, but to be fair, Starfire is her own character separate from Dick Grayson. She doesn't exist solely to be his love interest, especially since Dick galivants around with another woman. If the execution is spot and the stories are good the pairing would garner its own fanbase.

I can understand not wanting to create situations that pit fans against each other, but I think it would really help Cyborg (and Starfire) and give them an interesting thing to do that would get people's attention.

I get you. But I guess I just like the idea of Cyborg x Raven more. I think he could work with Starfire or Donna Troy as well.