Is villainy defined solely on one's actions? Or does intent play a role? Namor > Red Skull?

[MichaelAngel0]

First, a "quick" recap of the events that have led Namor to the dark place he is now.

spoilers:

In Hickman's two Avengers books, there is a massive threat that's causing the accelerated collapse and destruction of the Marvel Multiverse. Universes are colliding into each other, two at a time, and the point of impact is Earth. Every Earth. These events are called Incursions. Once it begins, there's only 8 hours till impact, and when left unimpeded, the two different Earth collide and from that point of impact all of creation in both universes are wiped from existence. Everything. Including whatever "heavens", or "hells", exist within those universes. The only option available is to destroy one of the two Earths. The universe that has its Earth destroyed is permanently saved from all future Incursions, while the universe with the surviving Earth is left with the opportunity to survive, or die, in another Incursion (so a possibly temporary lease on life). Creating a new Earth, after evacuating, and destroying the original, doesn't work. Moving the Earth doesn't work. Making it intangible doesn't work. there is evacuation, but, seeing as this story is realistic in tone, that would pose its on problems: - How to avoid/calm the panic and conflict that will occur. - How to convince people it's better to give up their current life for an unknown one, and blow up their Earth, instead of just destroying the one flying right at them when they have the means to. - Not everyone will be convinced to leave, so that means destroying your Earth also means murdering innocents of your Earth; those you've sworn to protect. - The means to accomplish the evacuation. - Where to take the people and fauna that have been evacuated, that's similar to Earth. - An Incursion can take place during this process. The Illuminati find out about this problem, and make it their mission to find a solution, but make a pact to keep their collusion and the threat a secret to everyone not apart of the group (Bruce/Hulk joins later tho) built anti-matter bombs as a last resort, after mind-wiping and kicking Cap out of the group; Cap refused to allow the building of the bombs, even after being outvoted, and was threatening to bring the Avengers down on them. Eventually the Illuminati are unable to come up with a safe solution (yes, the Infinity Gauntlet failed too), and are forced to battle and kill most (one of them is lying unconscious on a desert on Earth 616, and is unconfirmed to be dead or alive) another group heroes, the Justice Lea- I mean the Great Society, from another Earth. After the battle, one-by-one, each member of the Illuminati declines the offer to destroy the other Earth. To kill billions of innocent lives. Tony, Reed, T'Challa, Beast, Strange, Black Bolt, and Bruce all decide that it isn't worth it to destroy the other Earth, if they can no longer recognize the person they see in the mirror anymore. They resign themselves to their fate, and await oblivion. Namor says that their morality isn't worth the end of all of creation in two universes. He always knew that this would be the outcome, and that he was ready to become the monster he needed to become in order to protect the lives of those he cares for, as well as the rest of universe, while the others merely deluded themselves into thinking otherwise. Namor blows up the other Earth, and, after an attempt on his life by Black Panther, Tony expels him from the group. Right after all the crap they just went through, it turns out that Namor's efforts only bought their universe about 5-10min before the next 8hr doomsday clock began. However instead trying to come up with a solution, or at least telling others about the threat so that they could at least try, the other members of the Illuminati go and prepare to die with the rest of their universe. - Bruce decides to get drunk at the test site that turned him into the Hulk - Beast goes to have a talk with his younger, time-displaced self - Tony is about to commit suicide at the moment of impact - T'Challa has sex with Storm... - Strange leaves to another, unknown dimension - Black Bolt (and Lockjaw) is seen silently crying on the surface of the Moon - Reed goes to Latveria to visit Valerie before he dies Namor, not being smart enough to even dream of finding another solution, and having been abandoned by all his allies, decides to take upon himself to save the Earth, and the universe. Allying himself with Maximus, they free their prisoners, of which THANOS is one of, and recreates his new Cabal, with them having one objective: Find the Great Destroyer...and destroying all the Earths that stand in their way before they get to him/her.

end of spoilers

So, obviously, this has become a VERY ​controversial story; to the point that some people even look at Namor as a villain for what he's done. That he's no better than the likes of someone like the Red Skull, due to his killings of worlds and who he's now been forced to ally with.

So who agrees with that opinion? Is Namor evil? Is he a villain? Does the Red Skull, of all people, look tame in comparison due to Namor's unthinkable body count?

Or is Namor a king/hero/anti-hero that's been put into a nigh lose-lose situation, and is given basically no choice? Do the intentions and motivations justify the means, or are those just excuses?

Treat this as a general question as well; not just a Namor related one.

[Star_Jammer]

Red Skull (going with your comparison) doesn't do anything he does in an effort to save the Earth.

And that's all I can really add to the discussion.

[Kieran_Frost]

Intent matters a lot. Necessary evil and all that. I would say if it stems from a good place, it's (at best) anti-villain. Most often anti-hero (that's pretty much what an anti-hero is, someone who does good, by using bad methods).

[dragonmp93]

Well, if people think of cyclops as a villain, then why they wouldnt think of namor as a villain, who apparently did something much worse.

But no, i dont think that Namor is evil, maybe an #$%&%$# but not evil; and unlike the Red Skull, he is just really trying to save everyone, maybe is not the best way, but given that everything else has failed, is not like that he is a lot of options, or apparently at this point, even allies.

And thanks for the summary, i havent read the story, but the 8-months-jump attracted my attention.

[Ascended]

Excellent question.

I think intent matters, but only so far. Many of the best villains in fiction have very noble intentions, or at least noble aspirations. Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom both want to rule the world (in part) because they believe they're the best suited for the job and they have some solid evidence to prove they're right. Lex wants to see humanity reach its utmost potential, and that aspect of his motivation is quite noble. Its his methods and everything else about his motivations that make him a villain.

Namor....if he's a villain then so am I. He's been put into an impossible situation where the countless lives of two entire universes hang on his choices. He's not killing worlds because he wants to. He's killing worlds to save universes, and put in the same situation, where no other options have worked or presented themselves, I'd likely do the same thing (or at least intent to; who knows if I could bring myself to pull the trigger?)

[Mark]

If you are the victim intent doesn't really matter. You're going to feel the pain.
If you are the perpetrator intent does matter. You have a reason you feel is right and that's that.
If you are society at large intent does matter. That's part of how you judge the action.

The last two are again no difference to the victim and in any crime the victim should the one that we should care the most about.

[Flash Gordon]

I don't see Namor as a villain at all. Though I do disagree with how the character is used lately. He might be an ass, but he's sti a decent guy.

[victorxd1999]

In this situation I don't see Namor as villain at all. More as the only smart one (Why let two worlds be killed if you can save one?), I'd do the same if I was in his shoes. Seeing him as a villain is weird in this situation, since he's just trying to stop the destruction of the world (and thereby buying the rest of the illuminati time to find a solution)

[NeonZ]

I don't see why the whole "evacuate Earth for another planet/Earth" solution has been so far completely ignored by this story. Yes, it isn't a permanent solution for the incursions, but blowing up another planet and everyone there isn't a permanent solution either. And, yet, the greatest minds in the universe, haven't put any effort at all in a solution involving evacuating Earth, just blowing it up. It just seems like drama for the sake of drama.

[Vladimir Lemon]

Intent matters immensely in comic books. Anti-heroes have good motives but bring about bad outcomes. They can play the villain role, but there is always the chance at redemption and returning to the role of hero.

In real life, it's actually the opposite. People with messianic moral goals usually commit more evil than criminals whose goals are strictly selfish and predatory. Hitler truly believed he was saving the German people. Mao truly believed he was saving the average workers of China. The leaders of the Catholic and Protestant European countries during the Wars of Religion truly thought that they were saving souls. All of them committed far more evil than your typical serial killer.

In real life, it is rare to find killers whose motives are entirely selfish and predatory who gain enough power to kill large amounts of people. Genghis Khan is the best example I can think of. Most comic book villains have motives that are openly amoral and selfish, like the Mongols. People like Namor and Magneto, who switch from villain to hero and back, have personalities similar to many real life dictators.

[Double 0]

The ones with the "noble intentions" are normally the ones who commit the worst atrocities. They are the ones that can actually CONVINCE people that it's worth it. History proves this over and over again. Modern politics does the same.

Intent doesn't matter to the victims. Intent only proves if the action was based on pleasure based chaos or some sense of order.

Rationalizing is a psychological defense mechanism for a reason.

[Tofali]

As some have already pointed out intent matters. Also another question is who is he a villain to? Certainly not to the to the ppl he chose to save but he is definitely without a doubt a Villain to the billions he has killed.

[TakoM]

Intend matter but it doesn't make too great diffrents also guilt Narmor has more people killed with his action than Red Skull ever the only guy who has killed more people is Thanos.
I think for a final judgement we need first to know how the story end to see how necessary his evil really was.( To be true I don't think that will end good for Narmor)

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Okay has it been explained why they don't work with the other earths too find a solution?

[Mark]

Okay has it been explained why they don't work with the other earths too find a solution?

Well they tried with the Great Society heroes, but one word led to another and it simpler for Dr. Strange to power up and murder them all so that Namor could push the button to murder the planet. The rest of the Illuminati suddenly got cold feet. I dno't think talking isn't something that's going to be tried again, this is just going to be one blood fest after another with the Cabal murdering heroes while the Illuminati either pout, hide or run. The greatness that was these heroes isn't something that marvel seems to be interested in anymore.