Potential. Potential that we've yet to live up to, maybe but potential still. You can't naturally lift 10 times your body weight but you can think to build a pull that can, and later enough of us can accomplish so much more. If we don't blow ourselves up first. Still... if you don't agree with humans having more value than ants you and I are on a different moral plane to begin with. So agree to disagree.Protect the Earth? Yea, we're doing a real good job of that aren't we? Name me an environmental disaster that was caused by an ant. We can theoretically and potentially do a lot of things that the ant can't do, but then I can't naturally lift ten times my own weight. What we can't potentially do doesn't make our race any more valuable than the race of the ants. If ants vanished from the planet tomorrow there'd be a gigantic hole in the environment, if we vanished the planet would probably have a party.
Huh. Okay, I'm pretty sure the story is as you said earlier about arrogance and humility. There are too many details for the story to actually be badly thought out. You might not agree with the message, or the outcome but because of all the lines over 3 or more comics involved its really very well thought out, I'd say. Moreover, the story isn't complete so... its kinda too early to authoritatively say how it's going to end.I'm upset because I think the story is presenting the characters badly, the story itself is badly thought out and that after the story is over we'll be left with heroes who are murderers.
As for heroes and murderers, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive, you've made allowances for war but NOT for natural/unnatural disasters. I find that very inconsistent in the judging of Namor. People with medals of honors are specifically heroes for conspicuous gallantry which just as often as not involves a lot of killing. Those guys are heroes.
Heroes to their people not so much to the other guys and I think that's something you keep saying.
This story makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels, it fit with the Illuminati, and what they've always been about. It fits the morality of Kings throughout history to do literally ANYTHING to keep their kingdom, and namor has pretty much always been a king first and a hero second. Lastly cap is coming back to stop them, and a lot of what he says in the last issue sounds like the platform you're on. So I'm going to keep buying it and keep giving it a chance. It'll be interested to see what happens and how it all resolves.
Reminds me of tony stark and cap in the avengers movie. There are lots of moments in the world where there literally has NOT been another way. So no there really isn't, sadly.I'd shoot out the wheels. There's always another way.
Last edited by Midnight_v; 08-31-2014 at 12:12 PM.
My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
Everything else is irrelevant.
There's quite a lot of moralising going on in this thread, but from a philosophical point of view, it's not a particularly hard problem - it's really just a convoluted variation of the trolley problem. The rational solutions of which are based on your own particular moral philosophical stance. What the illuminati really need is a philosopher to tell them the course of action consistent with their own moral philosophy. Try the problem yourself here: http://www.philosophyexperiments.com...n/Default.aspx
Also, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem - but I'd suggest the previous link before reading the wiki one.
Find another option. Ask Odin, Zeus, any of the Earth gods, ask the gods of alien worlds, heck go and ask Mephisto, he's got a stake in this too. These are characters who think out side the box on a regular basis and suddenly they aren't. There are other beings in the universe who might have a clue on all of this.
Last edited by Mark; 08-31-2014 at 01:17 PM.
Fraid so. Given some evolution the ant would have the same potential. We might not be anything special, we might be just a little further up the evolutionary ladder.
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But there was another way in the Avengers movie, the Council was going to destroy New York with a nuke in the hopes that it would close the portal. It might have but Natasha found another way to close the portal and Tony directed the nuke through it first. There was no actual need for the nuke because Natasha found another way.
As to the arrogance that I agree with, but however it ends Dr. Strange has just murdered heroes and Namor has just blown up a world. The dead are dead and I don't think much justice will be visited upon these guys, marvel just isn't into justice that much. I keep buying because I hope I'm wrong, but I for one am not going to look at these characters anymore and really root for them against the supervillains.
If anyone here has read Tanith Lee's Night Master book the demon Ahzran plagued humanity for centuries until a greater evil arose and he had to defeat that enemy or risk loosing humanity which would have made his life empty. If the Illuminati are blowing up worlds -that presumably have their own demon types like Mephisto- the demons who feed on souls should realize that they'll be no more food unless they help save the world. A similar situation with Ares in George Perez Wonder Woman initially after the original Crisis reboot. If you can't go to cosmic level beings for fear they'll just destroy the Earth right away, go to cosmic level beings who have a vested interest in keeping the Earth around. Maybe if Reed and Sue offered their marriage to Mephisto he'd agree to help
So your idea is forming something like a council with Cyttorak, Chthon, Chons, the Phoenix, Galactus, Dormammu, Mephisto, Bast, that Tiger God from White Tiger, that Dragon from Iron Fist, and basically every other god-like being that sees the humans as toys and/or earth as their personal playground/ant-like farm, so between all of them they can think of something to stop the incursions without destroying the other alternate earths ?.
Yes. Because on those alternate Earths would most likely be other versions of Cyttorak, Chthon, Chons, the Phoenix, Galactus, Dormammu, Mephisto, Bast and the rest and I'm sure they would rather not be wiped out of existence when their Earth's die and given that these creatures are pros at death, destruction and despair (what about Nightmare and D'spare anyway?) they might at least have a clue about what's going on or how hit started. These are creatures that as you point out see humans as toys and what child wants his toys taken away? It's a longshot but if the Illuminati are just willing to let everything die again what have they got to loose?
Imo only the actions decide whether they are a villain or not, victims do not give a damn for someones justification for destroying their lives.
There has been no war declared. None of the homicides Obama has authorized were part of a war, they were all executive actions.
As for why Namor did it, that's pure speculation, but I find it unimaginable that he wouldn’t even consider the fate of the entire universe when he made his decision.
Okay, we’re just going to have to fundamentally disagree then. An ant’s life is not as valuable as a human’s life in any respect. Nor is the loss of a single human life, although terrible, in anyway equivalent to, say, the loss of a million human lives. The scale of a tragedy is a very simple and important concept that warrants consideration.
Thank you, I agree.
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Not even a little bit.
The multiverse is no longer infinitely expanding. It's going in the other direction.
The Living Tribunal is apparently dead (even if not, he's out of the picture), the One-Above-All can't be contacted by anyone but the Living Tribunal, and the Phoenix is sort of dead right now -- and even if it weren't, it was far less than helpful the last time it came to Earth.
Even if it wanted to be helpful, its power extends only to a single universe. Each universe has its own Phoenix.
As for the Scarlet Witch, even if she does feel like being sane on the particular day you go to her for help, her powers have never been greater than Franklin Richards' anyway -- someone who is in this story and can't do anything about the problem.
Given that he brought up the entire universe when he did it, I also have to find it unimaginable that he didn't consider its fate. We know beyond any doubt that he did.
That really is the opposing logic at work here -- that one dead human is as bad as six million dead humans or seven billion dead humans, and that if a single person dies, everyone should die. We should just call every murder a fucking genocide or holocaust, I guess. The families of those who die should just kill themselves. World leaders should just starting launching nukes like confetti the next time someone on our planet dies.Originally Posted by Exciter
That's the utterly daft "logic" at work in here.
Last edited by TresDias; 08-31-2014 at 10:01 PM.