Is villainy defined solely on one's actions? Or does intent play a role? Namor > Red Skull?

[Emma's Midriff]

What I'm saying is that they both killed billions and that's not something that's going to be easily forgivable no matter the reason. Steve is already gathering the Avengers to go after the Illuminati. And judging by the NA preview pages, Hyperion is not going to be happy with the Cabal, no matter their reasons.

Both Bishop and Namor acted because they thought they were saving worlds. No matter what the intentions they destroyed worlds and both apparently with little regret.

Except only one of them actually was saving worlds. That's the difference. That's why the situations are different. That's why people who support Namor's actions might not have supported Bishop's.

[Mark]

Well, to be sincere, besides of asking the Living Tribunal or the One Above All for help; the Phoenix and what whatever boosted the Scarlet Witch's powers are the only alternatives left until Namor's methods are the only thing to do.

Part of the problem with this abomination of a story is that all of the cosmic beings seem to be in a bar someplace leaving the fate of the universe in the hands of mortals.

[Mark]

What I'm saying is that they both killed billions and that's not something that's going to be easily forgivable no matter the reason. Steve is already gathering the Avengers to go after the Illuminati. And judging by the NA preview pages, Hyperion is not going to be happy with the Cabal, no matter their reasons.

Both Bishop and Namor acted because they thought they were saving worlds. No matter what the intentions they destroyed worlds and both apparently with little regret.

Do you seriously think that anything is going to happen to the Illuminati? We've already seen the solicits, Tony is Superior Iron Man. They may get beaten up a bit, endure some cold shoulders for a while, Reed may get another stern look from Sue, but consequences? Only until the redemption mini and then it's washed away.

[Marvell2100]

Except only one of them actually was saving worlds. That's the difference. That's why the situations are different. That's why people who support Namor's actions might not have supported Bishop's.

That's perfectly plausible. Some people will defend Namor and some will defend Bishop. And then some would call them both murderer's. It's all based on one's perspective. I'm just pointing out the fact they they've killed billions. I applied no moral judgment to their actions. There can be a case made for and against both.

The only problem I have is that they've pretty much ruined two good characters in the process. But then some would disagree with that statement as well.

[Marvell2100]

Do you seriously think that anything is going to happen to the Illuminati? We've already seen the solicits, Tony is Superior Iron Man. They may get beaten up a bit, endure some cold shoulders for a while, Reed may get another stern look from Sue, but consequences? Only until the redemption mini and then it's washed away.

I couldn't tell you if anything is going to happen. All I know is that Steve is gathering the Avengers to hunt down the Illuminati. I'm just waiting to see his reaction to the Cabal.

[Mark]

I couldn't tell you if anything is going to happen. All I know is that Steve is gathering the Avengers to hunt down the Illuminati. I'm just waiting to see his reaction to the Cabal.

I agree he'll hunt them down, but then what does he do? Lock up the only people who might able to stop the incursions? Let more universes die including his own? At most the Illuminati may get a spanking.

[Exciter]

No, I don't agree. Going on that anyone who's the head of state would have immunity from consequences. There was no war declared, Namor killed when had no right to kill. His intent boils to 'I'll kill them so what I love won't be killed.' While this is different from say Thanos who's intent probably boils down to 'I'll kill them because I enjoy the ego boost I get from killing those less powerful than myself, thus proving myself more powerful which I need to keep doing, oh and I'll be saving my home universes too.' The intent is the same even if the motivation is slightly different. Pure, savage survival without a hint of civilized thought. The exact opposite of what the marvel heroes have -or had until AD- stood for.
Ultimately intent doesn't matter to the victim be he one or a trillion; the end result is pain and death and the persons responsible are mostly going to skip away from it. Reed and Tony at least if I read the solicits correctly and the most I think Dr. Strange is going to suffer is a redemption mini. I don't think there is any compelling desire for any sort of justice among the marvel staff, at least not in this story. I can only imagine that Hickman must really not like the DC heroes that much since as I've noted we've yet to see Namor and Thanos ripping apart say the Equestria of My Little Pony or the Earth where the Smurf's live, he seems to want to keep this focused on marvel heroes murdering DC facsimiles.

So I take it you feel President Obama (and, indeed, every president) should be tried for murder? He kills the enemy combatants so what he loves (Americans, in theory) won’t be killed and there hasn’t been a war declared. If Namor declared a war on the world that was threatening his people's existence, would that have made it right?

“I’ll kill them so what I love won’t be killed” seems eminently reasonable. Indeed, Namor had every obligation to protect the people he ruled over. A King’s foremost responsibility is to protect his people, and in this case, his world.

As for facing consequences, anyone who tries to punish Namor will have to at least wrestle with the reality that Namor is the reason they and everyone they ever loved are alive. “My family and I are alive because you saved us, so now face my wrath!”

Its a rock and a hard place situation where there is no right choice. It's either blow up a world to save two whole realities and hope you buy enough time to find a solution, or allow every single thing in these two realities to die because "nobility."

It seems to me, that in this particular case, saving two universes at the cost of one planet and your own soul is as right a choice as there is.

Indeed. I’ve used the analogy that, in the incursion situation, the Earth is really like a cancer upon the universe. It has to be removed or the entire Universe will die. Lance Armstrong didn’t want to remove that testicle, but he had to and because he did he was around to achieve legendary cycling status.

[Marvell2100]

I agree he'll hunt them down, but then what does he do? Lock up the only people who might able to stop the incursions? Let more universes die including his own? At most the Illuminati may get a spanking.

Like I said, I don't know what he'll do. Steve may not even be Cap when it all goes down. He may not imprison the other Illuminati members because they weren't the ones to actually pull the trigger. Or he may feel they're guilty because they actually built the bombs. But someone is going to be the villain in this story and someone or a lot of someone's will pay the price.

[Mark]

So I take it you feel President Obama (and, indeed, every president) should be tried for murder? He kills the enemy combatants so what he loves (Americans, in theory) won’t be killed and there hasn’t been a war declared. If Namor declared a war on the world that was threatening his people's existence, would that have made it right?

“I’ll kill them so what I love won’t be killed” seems eminently reasonable. Indeed, Namor had every obligation to protect the people he ruled over. A King’s foremost responsibility is to protect his people, and in this case, his world.

As for facing consequences, anyone who tries to punish Namor will have to at least wrestle with the reality that Namor is the reason they and everyone they ever loved are alive. “My family and I are alive because you saved us, so now face my wrath!”

Not the ones who judge Namor are people from another universe altogether. Nor do I think Obama should be tried for murder. It's a nice little moral block to compare one to another, but the fact of the matter is that there is a difference between a king protecting his people by waging war and a king protecting his people by murder. Obama has not ordered the middle east nuked. Namor pretty much did. If his first obligation is to protect his people then his second should have been to protect them in another way. If all he was worried about was his peoples survival he could have shifted the relatively small population of Atlantis out of the universe.

I could judge Namor if I were from the mu because while had a right to decide for his people, his people weren't the only ones involved. He decided to choose for everyone without consulting anyone and that overstepping what ever responsibility he might have had. In my opinion he was wrong and also in my opinion any consequences will probably be of the 'now you must live with what you've done' type. I think marvel is too cynical and considers life too cheap for anything else.

[Mark]

Like I said, I don't know what he'll do. Steve may not even be Cap when it all goes down. He may not imprison the other Illuminati members because they weren't the ones to actually pull the trigger. Or he may feel they're guilty because they actually built the bombs. But someone is going to be the villain in this story and someone or a lot of someone's will pay the price.

I doubt it. And if they do it'll be a cheap price and the payment will only last until the next big event.

[Mr MajestiK]

Like I said, I don't know what he'll do. Steve may not even be Cap when it all goes down. He may not imprison the other Illuminati members because they weren't the ones to actually pull the trigger. Or he may feel they're guilty because they actually built the bombs. But someone is going to be the villain in this story and someone or a lot of someone's will pay the price.

If Cap was still able to work with Namor over in the New Invaders book after AvX, I very much doubt he'll have a problem turning a blind eye to Namor's pulling of the trigger on an alternate earth.

Roger's beef lies mostly with the intellectuals on the group IMO.

[Marvell2100]

I doubt it. And if they do it'll be a cheap price and the payment will only last until the next big event.

Well lets look at what some members of the Illuminati have lost already.

Black Bolt has lost his kingdom.
T'Challa is cut off from Wakanda.
Dr Strange is losing his soul.
Namor has lost his kingdom.
Beast has lost his way.
Reed is okay so far.
Bruce seems content that the Hulk will finally be killed.

It may not be the punishment you think they deserve but they aren't going through this unscathed. And the story isn't over yet.

[Marvell2100]

If Cap was still able to work with Namor over in the New Invaders book after AvX, I very much doubt he'll have a problem turning a blind eye to Namor's pulling of the trigger on an alternate earth.

Roger's beef lies mostly with the intellectuals on the group IMO.

We'll find out soon enough.

[hawkeyefan]

Part of the problem with this abomination of a story is that all of the cosmic beings seem to be in a bar someplace leaving the fate of the universe in the hands of mortals.

In regard to the cosmic beings, that has been addressed within the confines of the story. And it would also defeat the purpose of the story to rob the characters of their agency by having cosmic entities wave their fingers and fix things.

And "abomination" is overly harsh. Clearly the story is compelling given your continued involvement in each and every thread on the topic.

I agree he'll hunt them down, but then what does he do? Lock up the only people who might able to stop the incursions? Let more universes die including his own? At most the Illuminati may get a spanking.

Hasn't this been the course of action you have been asking for? Punishment for the Illuminati and for those involved to retain their morals and allow the incursion to destroy both universes?

[Exciter]

Not the ones who judge Namor are people from another universe altogether. Nor do I think Obama should be tried for murder. It's a nice little moral block to compare one to another, but the fact of the matter is that there is a difference between a king protecting his people by waging war and a king protecting his people by murder. Obama has not ordered the middle east nuked. Namor pretty much did. If his first obligation is to protect his people then his second should have been to protect them in another way. If all he was worried about was his peoples survival he could have shifted the relatively small population of Atlantis out of the universe.

I could judge Namor if I were from the mu because while had a right to decide for his people, his people weren't the only ones involved. He decided to choose for everyone without consulting anyone and that overstepping what ever responsibility he might have had. In my opinion he was wrong and also in my opinion any consequences will probably be of the 'now you must live with what you've done' type. I think marvel is too cynical and considers life too cheap for anything else.

Obama kills plenty of people in drone strikes. By your rationale, he intends to kill them and then does and there is no war. He should then be considered a murderer. He hasn’t killed the whole Middle East because the whole Middle East isn’t directly threatening America.

Moreover, if he didn’t act TWO WHOLE UNIVERSES would have died. Would you approve of dropping a bomb on one town if it would save the entire country from death? Namor’s choice was exponentially more lop-sided, as there are enumerable lives in the universe (x2).

The Marvel wiki has 192 planets listed (and of course, there are many more planets in the universe than would be listed on the wiki so even this calculation will be much less). Assuming they all have Earth like populations (7 billion), that’s 1,344 billion sentient lives . Double it because there’s two universes, and that’s 2,688 billion. 2,688 billion against 7 billion. And of course, that 7 billion would die ANYWAY if nothing was done. How could anyone NOT make that choice?

Namor’s act wasn’t selfish. He did a monstrous act because to not act would have invited the unimaginable.