Is villainy defined solely on one's actions? Or does intent play a role? Namor > Red Skull?

[dragonmp93]

I'd shoot out the wheels. There's always another way.

Really, which one ?.

Because, in this case, there is only three options left:

- The Phoenix.
- The power-booster that the Scarlet Witch used prior House of M.
- Asking for help to the Living Tribunal or the One-Above-All.

[Midnight_v]

Protect the Earth? Yea, we're doing a real good job of that aren't we? Name me an environmental disaster that was caused by an ant. We can theoretically and potentially do a lot of things that the ant can't do, but then I can't naturally lift ten times my own weight. What we can't potentially do doesn't make our race any more valuable than the race of the ants. If ants vanished from the planet tomorrow there'd be a gigantic hole in the environment, if we vanished the planet would probably have a party.

Potential. Potential that we've yet to live up to, maybe but potential still. You can't naturally lift 10 times your body weight but you can think to build a pull that can, and later enough of us can accomplish so much more. If we don't blow ourselves up first. Still... if you don't agree with humans having more value than ants you and I are on a different moral plane to begin with. So agree to disagree.

I'm upset because I think the story is presenting the characters badly, the story itself is badly thought out and that after the story is over we'll be left with heroes who are murderers.

Huh. Okay, I'm pretty sure the story is as you said earlier about arrogance and humility. There are too many details for the story to actually be badly thought out. You might not agree with the message, or the outcome but because of all the lines over 3 or more comics involved its really very well thought out, I'd say. Moreover, the story isn't complete so... its kinda too early to authoritatively say how it's going to end.
As for heroes and murderers, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive, you've made allowances for war but NOT for natural/unnatural disasters. I find that very inconsistent in the judging of Namor. People with medals of honors are specifically heroes for conspicuous gallantry which just as often as not involves a lot of killing. Those guys are heroes.
Heroes to their people not so much to the other guys and I think that's something you keep saying.

This story makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels, it fit with the Illuminati, and what they've always been about. It fits the morality of Kings throughout history to do literally ANYTHING to keep their kingdom, and namor has pretty much always been a king first and a hero second. Lastly cap is coming back to stop them, and a lot of what he says in the last issue sounds like the platform you're on. So I'm going to keep buying it and keep giving it a chance. It'll be interested to see what happens and how it all resolves.

I'd shoot out the wheels. There's always another way.

Reminds me of tony stark and cap in the avengers movie. There are lots of moments in the world where there literally has NOT been another way. So no there really isn't, sadly.

[VJ.]

There's quite a lot of moralising going on in this thread, but from a philosophical point of view, it's not a particularly hard problem - it's really just a convoluted variation of the trolley problem. The rational solutions of which are based on your own particular moral philosophical stance. What the illuminati really need is a philosopher to tell them the course of action consistent with their own moral philosophy. Try the problem yourself here: http://www.philosophyexperiments.com...n/Default.aspx
Also, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem - but I'd suggest the previous link before reading the wiki one.

[Mark]

Really, which one ?.

Because, in this case, there is only three options left:

- The Phoenix.
- The power-booster that the Scarlet Witch used prior House of M.
- Asking for help to the Living Tribunal or the One-Above-All.

Find another option. Ask Odin, Zeus, any of the Earth gods, ask the gods of alien worlds, heck go and ask Mephisto, he's got a stake in this too. These are characters who think out side the box on a regular basis and suddenly they aren't. There are other beings in the universe who might have a clue on all of this.

[Mark]

Potential. Potential that we've yet to live up to, maybe but potential still. You can't naturally lift 10 times your body weight but you can think to build a pull that can, and later enough of us can accomplish so much more. If we don't blow ourselves up first. Still... if you don't agree with humans having more value than ants you and I are on a different moral plane to begin with. So agree to disagree.

Fraid so. Given some evolution the ant would have the same potential. We might not be anything special, we might be just a little further up the evolutionary ladder.

Huh. Okay, I'm pretty sure the story is as you said earlier about arrogance and humility. There are too many details for the story to actually be badly thought out. You might not agree with the message, or the outcome but because of all the lines over 3 or more comics involved its really very well thought out, I'd say. Moreover, the story isn't complete so... its kinda too early to authoritatively say how it's going to end.
As for heroes and murderers, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive, you've made allowances for war but NOT for natural/unnatural disasters. I find that very inconsistent in the judging of Namor. People with medals of honors are specifically heroes for conspicuous gallantry which just as often as not involves a lot of killing. Those guys are heroes.
Heroes to their people not so much to the other guys and I think that's something you keep saying.

This story makes a lot of sense on a lot of levels, it fit with the Illuminati, and what they've always been about. It fits the morality of Kings throughout history to do literally ANYTHING to keep their kingdom, and namor has pretty much always been a king first and a hero second. Lastly cap is coming back to stop them, and a lot of what he says in the last issue sounds like the platform you're on. So I'm going to keep buying it and keep giving it a chance. It'll be interested to see what happens and how it all resolves.
Reminds me of tony stark and cap in the avengers movie. There are lots of moments in the world where there literally has NOT been another way. So no there really isn't, sadly.

[/quote]

But there was another way in the Avengers movie, the Council was going to destroy New York with a nuke in the hopes that it would close the portal. It might have but Natasha found another way to close the portal and Tony directed the nuke through it first. There was no actual need for the nuke because Natasha found another way.

As to the arrogance that I agree with, but however it ends Dr. Strange has just murdered heroes and Namor has just blown up a world. The dead are dead and I don't think much justice will be visited upon these guys, marvel just isn't into justice that much. I keep buying because I hope I'm wrong, but I for one am not going to look at these characters anymore and really root for them against the supervillains.

[Mikekerr3]

I'd shoot out the wheels. There's always another way.

Cars roll quite well on flat tires, and shooting out tires is FAR FAR harder than shown in the movies.

There is not always another way, outside of a writers conceit. Or kibitzing with unlimited time over decisions that have to be made immediately

[Mark]

Cars roll quite well on flat tires, and shooting out tires is FAR FAR harder than shown in the movies.

There is not always another way, outside of a writers conceit. Or kibitzing with unlimited time over decisions that have to be made immediately

I disagree.

[XPac]

I disagree.

I think there's USUALLY another way (especially in fiction). But anytime you use the terms "always" or "never" you're basically just setting yourself up to be proven wrong.

[dragonmp93]

Find another option. Ask Odin, Zeus, any of the Earth gods, ask the gods of alien worlds, heck go and ask Mephisto, he's got a stake in this too. These are characters who think out side the box on a regular basis and suddenly they aren't. There are other beings in the universe who might have a clue on all of this.

Like the cáncer-verse or the earth 1218 ?.

And how involving eldritch abominations like the Many-Angled Ones, Shuma-Gorath, and Abraxas in this mess is better than letting Namor, Thanos and the rest of the cabal destroy alternate earths ?.

[Mark]

Like the cáncer-verse or the earth 1218 ?.

And how involving eldritch abominations like the Many-Angled Ones, Shuma-Gorath, and Abraxas in this mess is better than letting Namor, Thanos and the rest of the cabal destroy alternate earths ?.

If anyone here has read Tanith Lee's Night Master book the demon Ahzran plagued humanity for centuries until a greater evil arose and he had to defeat that enemy or risk loosing humanity which would have made his life empty. If the Illuminati are blowing up worlds -that presumably have their own demon types like Mephisto- the demons who feed on souls should realize that they'll be no more food unless they help save the world. A similar situation with Ares in George Perez Wonder Woman initially after the original Crisis reboot. If you can't go to cosmic level beings for fear they'll just destroy the Earth right away, go to cosmic level beings who have a vested interest in keeping the Earth around. Maybe if Reed and Sue offered their marriage to Mephisto he'd agree to help

[dragonmp93]

If anyone here has read Tanith Lee's Night Master book the demon Ahzran plagued humanity for centuries until a greater evil arose and he had to defeat that enemy or risk loosing humanity which would have made his life empty. If the Illuminati are blowing up worlds -that presumably have their own demon types like Mephisto- the demons who feed on souls should realize that they'll be no more food unless they help save the world. A similar situation with Ares in George Perez Wonder Woman initially after the original Crisis reboot. If you can't go to cosmic level beings for fear they'll just destroy the Earth right away, go to cosmic level beings who have a vested interest in keeping the Earth around. Maybe if Reed and Sue offered their marriage to Mephisto he'd agree to help

So your idea is forming something like a council with Cyttorak, Chthon, Chons, the Phoenix, Galactus, Dormammu, Mephisto, Bast, that Tiger God from White Tiger, that Dragon from Iron Fist, and basically every other god-like being that sees the humans as toys and/or earth as their personal playground/ant-like farm, so between all of them they can think of something to stop the incursions without destroying the other alternate earths ?.

[Mark]

So your idea is forming something like a council with Cyttorak, Chthon, Chons, the Phoenix, Galactus, Dormammu, Mephisto, Bast, that Tiger God from White Tiger, that Dragon from Iron Fist, and basically every other god-like being that sees the humans as toys and/or earth as their personal playground/ant-like farm, so between all of them they can think of something to stop the incursions without destroying the other alternate earths ?.

Yes. Because on those alternate Earths would most likely be other versions of Cyttorak, Chthon, Chons, the Phoenix, Galactus, Dormammu, Mephisto, Bast and the rest and I'm sure they would rather not be wiped out of existence when their Earth's die and given that these creatures are pros at death, destruction and despair (what about Nightmare and D'spare anyway?) they might at least have a clue about what's going on or how hit started. These are creatures that as you point out see humans as toys and what child wants his toys taken away? It's a longshot but if the Illuminati are just willing to let everything die again what have they got to loose?

[Rochedalaix]

Imo only the actions decide whether they are a villain or not, victims do not give a damn for someones justification for destroying their lives.

[Exciter]

I don't believe the Obama example works, not only because of the scale but because we are in a war -however much many won't admit it- with a foe that does want to kill us. He may not be doing a great job and I don't think he's got a clue on how to handle it and I really, really don't think he's waging the war in the right way, but I don't think it qualifies as murder when you kill people in a war. ...

He didn't do it to save uncounted trillions, he did it to save Atlantis.

There has been no war declared. None of the homicides Obama has authorized were part of a war, they were all executive actions.

As for why Namor did it, that's pure speculation, but I find it unimaginable that he wouldn’t even consider the fate of the entire universe when he made his decision.

That only qualifies if you go by numbers. If two lives are worth more than one life then three lives must be worth more than two lives and so on. It doesn't work that way. My life is no more or less valuable than your life and that of your closest friend. All life is equal, born with the same value no matter what species. An ant lives in many respects the same life I live.

Okay, we’re just going to have to fundamentally disagree then. An ant’s life is not as valuable as a human’s life in any respect. Nor is the loss of a single human life, although terrible, in anyway equivalent to, say, the loss of a million human lives. The scale of a tragedy is a very simple and important concept that warrants consideration.

You have a really good point, that isn't well refuted by the posts that respond to it.

Thank you, I agree.

[TresDias]

I wonder if the same folks that support Namor would feel the same about Bishop

Not even a little bit.

Intent matters, Skull kills those he hates, not sure if Namor hates the alternate Earths.

Why are the Illuminati and Cabal the only groups that know about this anyway? Forge has a dimensional viewer, there are omniversal Captain Britains, there are the time brokers that sent the Exiles everywhere, there is the M'kraan crystal and Nexus guardians, but nobody else knows? All the time travellers like Cable, Bishop, Iron Lad and Kang never noticed something like an incursion? Besides, wouldn't the deletion of an alternate Earth simply create a new timeline, a *what if Earth XXXX wasn't destroyed by Reed & Stark bombs* reality?

The multiverse is no longer infinitely expanding. It's going in the other direction.

Well, to be sincere, besides of asking the Living Tribunal or the One Above All for help; the Phoenix and what whatever boosted the Scarlet Witch's powers are the only alternatives left until Namor's methods are the only thing to do.

The Living Tribunal is apparently dead (even if not, he's out of the picture), the One-Above-All can't be contacted by anyone but the Living Tribunal, and the Phoenix is sort of dead right now -- and even if it weren't, it was far less than helpful the last time it came to Earth.

Even if it wanted to be helpful, its power extends only to a single universe. Each universe has its own Phoenix.

As for the Scarlet Witch, even if she does feel like being sane on the particular day you go to her for help, her powers have never been greater than Franklin Richards' anyway -- someone who is in this story and can't do anything about the problem.

There has been no war declared. None of the homicides Obama has authorized were part of a war, they were all executive actions.

As for why Namor did it, that's pure speculation, but I find it unimaginable that he wouldn’t even consider the fate of the entire universe when he made his decision.

Given that he brought up the entire universe when he did it, I also have to find it unimaginable that he didn't consider its fate. We know beyond any doubt that he did.

An ant’s life is not as valuable as a human’s life in any respect. Nor is the loss of a single human life, although terrible, in anyway equivalent to, say, the loss of a million human lives.

That really is the opposing logic at work here -- that one dead human is as bad as six million dead humans or seven billion dead humans, and that if a single person dies, everyone should die. We should just call every murder a fucking genocide or holocaust, I guess. The families of those who die should just kill themselves. World leaders should just starting launching nukes like confetti the next time someone on our planet dies.

That's the utterly daft "logic" at work in here.