Is villainy defined solely on one's actions? Or does intent play a role? Namor > Red Skull?

[KOSLOX]

On moral&law the thing that the illuminati did is the most horrible thing you can do.

Only based on utilitarianism thinking.

Deontological principles would likely say they took the highest path, but now they bear responsibility for stopping the cabal and the incursions without killing.

[Mahes]

Only based on utilitarianism thinking.

Deontological principles would likely say they took the highest path, but now they bear responsibility for stopping the cabal and the incursions without killing.

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but a utilitarian standard would excuse the actions of the Illuminati just by the numbers.

[KOSLOX]

I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but a utilitarian standard would excuse the actions of the Illuminati just by the numbers.

It would excuse Namor and the Cabal. I'm separating Namor from the Illum since one group has chosen Utilitarianism (Cabal) and the other (Illum minus Namor) is some sort of hybrid, but clearly NOT simple utilitarian.

Utilitarianist probably would take an issue with the Illums inaction.

It's been YEARS since I've taken any philosophy or ethics classes though so I may be a bit rusty on the various arguments.

[Mahes]

It would excuse Namor and the Cabal. I'm separating Namor from the Illum since one group has chosen Utilitarianism (Cabal) and the other (Illum minus Namor) is some sort of hybrid, but clearly NOT simple utilitarian.

Utilitarianist probably would take an issue with the Illums inaction.

It's been YEARS since I've taken any philosophy or ethics classes though so I may be a bit rusty on the various arguments.

Ah ok. I agree then and it's hard to classify the Illuminati unless they're trying to abide by Kant's ethics? I'm rusty as well.

[TresDias]

Namor's a red herring. Sorry. Couldn't resist.
The big question is, why just earth?
Why aren't Jupiters crashing into each other? Or the stars in Orion's belt? Or entire galaxies?
It's just earth.
Given the collective IQ in the group, you'd think someone would have been looking into this by now.
But no, they seem to just treat it as a natural phenomenon, much like a forest fire or a tsunami.
A natural phenomenon that only targets the same planet, in an infinite number of universes.
In a group like this, I'd like to see some rational, linear thinking, but what we actually have is a variation on "Hulk smash".
Loads of character development, much agonizing, but not really much thinking beyond "look at this really cool bomb we built!"

I suspect we're going to learn that the heroes of Earth themselves are at fault for this. Well, them and the villains.

Remember, the universe was never supposed to be a multiverse to begin with. There was one Living Tribunal to manage things, and then the Celestials went and screwed it all up when they splintered the universe into the multiverse so that there would be barriers between universes in which they could trap their experiments that went poorly and were trying to kill them.

This left the Living Trbunal with an infinitely expanding number of universes to manage rather than just one (probably why he needs the Magistrati to help him out), and, meanwhile, you've got heroes and villains hopping through time and dimensions every other week -- sometimes just because they feel like it and not even necessarily because it's needed to end crises.

I think their cumulative actions across the various Earths of the multiverse (countless heroes and villains on countless Earths hopping through time and reality) have broken down those barriers, letting everything bleed into everything else.

I also think this is why we have seen so many time travel stories over the past few years. Marvel was preparing ready-at-hand examples to have the story point to when this reveal comes.

[TakoM]

It would excuse Namor and the Cabal. I'm separating Namor from the Illum since one group has chosen Utilitarianism (Cabal) and the other (Illum minus Namor) is some sort of hybrid, but clearly NOT simple utilitarian.

Utilitarianist probably would take an issue with the Illums inaction.

It's been YEARS since I've taken any philosophy or ethics classes though so I may be a bit rusty on the various arguments.

I would count Strange also as someone who did choose utilitarianism and we still don't know where he is.
The problem with the rest is for one side they did already far too much for the other side they haven't done enough.

I think I choose the side of deontological principles because I know as reader the story just would had taken another way and universe would be saved. On top of that I also saw how the whole MU exploded and were restored a few times. So I'm not a real deontological because I know there wouldn't be any consequences but I still have high value of moral and also what I said how a hero should be is also still true from my perspective.

I think the problem on side is how soldiers very often are described as heroes in societies which goes to war. I can only say that they are another kind of heroes than heroes which are a hero for all people. If you think about it CW(Avenger Initiative) was also about this heroes which are heroes for all people make into Soldiers for their country not also them also all normal people which had superpowers.

This inner conflict is topic for Marvel Comics since a while.
Remember someone how old Nick Fury lost his job?Yeah he tried making "heroes for all people" to soldiers.

I also think you can't find any true in this story because you put people in a absolute desperate situation so that you can justify for survival anything.
I did built before the anti-these to Hickmans situation under the same premise a nice guy super-villain that save&conquer the multiverse form the incursion and always wins.(Kahn XXL)

You notice that whole story somewhere is unnatural not only because it came from a comic also because the whole situation is so messed up.

I can only say I hope the story won't have a half-ass end that means please rest the whole story so it didn't happen or let it run in full consequences. I think even when a rest of the story happened it will still hard for the fans becasue they saw what those heros could do when you push them hard enough.(Okay it's a comic but ...this is not was use happens in comics)

[dragonmp93]

I was reading the marvel wiki, and in the Incursions page, its says that during an incursión, when one earth is destroyed, the rest of that universe is saved along with the universe with the surviving earth. Its this true ?.

[Rochedalaix]

I was reading the marvel wiki, and in the Incursions page, its says that during an incursión, when one earth is destroyed, the rest of that universe is saved along with the universe with the surviving earth. Its this true ?.

Yes, but the universe with the destroyed Earth no longer has to worry about incursions, and that is one of the reasons why Alex getting rid of Planet X to bring back the Earth was a terrible idea.

[Mikekerr3]

Intent is the most important thing here.

I am sure that Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Leopold II of Belgium and even Hitler all acted in what they thought was good intent. They managed to be absolutely vile monsters with that "good" intent. The old sayingthe road to hell is paved with good intentions is considered a truism for a reason. Good intent alone is not a moral justification

[dragonmp93]

Yes, but the universe with the destroyed Earth no longer has to worry about incursions, and that is one of the reasons why Alex getting rid of Planet X to bring back the Earth was a terrible idea.

OH. MY. GOD.

I have never connected the dots; but of course, everything makes sense now, i never thought it in that way, but now i see it. Seriously, the Uncanny Avengers are the worst superhero team ever.

And wait a minute, if the things are this way, then how come that Namor is the villain here ?.................................................

[Mahes]

I am sure that Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Leopold II of Belgium and even Hitler all acted in what they thought was good intent. They managed to be absolutely vile monsters with that "good" intent. The old sayingthe road to hell is paved with good intentions is considered a truism for a reason. Good intent alone is not a moral justification

Yeah but to connect the likes of Pol Pot, Stalin, and all to Namor and the Cabal is a bit of stretch.

OH. MY. GOD.

I have never connected the dots; but of course, everything makes sense now, i never thought it in that way, but now i see it. Seriously, the Uncanny Avengers are the worst superhero team ever.

And wait a minute, if the things are this way, then how come that Namor is the villain here ?.................................................

Well no one on the Uncanny Avengers roster knows about the incursions so they can be excused for that. However, Beast knows about them and he was with Alex during Planet X and should have alerted him about it.

[Mikekerr3]

Yeah but to connect the likes of Pol Pot, Stalin, and all to Namor and the Cabal is a bit of stretch.

In the context of the books the Cabal and Namor have killed more people


But I was making the point that good intentions implemented by evil actions are still evil and used extreme example to make that obvious

[KOSLOX]

And wait a minute, if the things are this way, then how come that Namor is the villain here ?.................................................

The thread is about intent. His intent isn't to spare other universes or really even his own universe merely to save his own planet. By that metric it's an act of self preservation not one of heroism.

As I said before it's a moral act according to utilitarian ethics, but if we think about things like incomensurablity of life or explore more kantian ideas then sacrificing one for the many ultimately results in death via direct action so it's not a moral act.

[dragonmp93]

The thread is about intent. His intent isn't to spare other universes or really even his own universe merely to save his own planet. By that metric it's an act of self preservation not one of heroism.

As I said before it's a moral act according to utilitarian ethics, but if we think about things like incomensurablity of life or explore more kantian ideas then sacrificing one for the many ultimately results in death via direct action so it's not a moral act.

Well, i was talking about that, if anything, Havok should be the presumed villain, not Namor.

[TresDias]

That really wouldn't make sense. Havok knew nothing about the Incursions and was undoing the wrongs of evil time travelers.