Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789
Results 121 to 130 of 130
  1. #121
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Moira approached Xavier on his student years, yes, but Moira´s diary showed she had a hard time convincing him and later Magneto of the plan she had, in fact she expressely said she had to "break" Xavier to make him try it her own way. So I think most of X-men story was genuine, Xavier was genuinely trying to built a coexistence initiative with the X-men while Moira mostlyworked on her own in her island and there was an alliance with Magneto when he joined the X-men but also a separation later until Utopia were Magneto rejoined the X-men.

    It´s still a retcon, so not everything clics together and I think it needs more work characterwise with Moira because she definitely was a different person before Krakoa but I can see why after the events of Age of X-man in which there was worldwide persecution of mutants, Xavier would try it Moira´s way.
    It’s a recon all the way back to X-Men #1, vol. #1. And it really doesn’t work. Xavier had the dream or he didn’t. If he hedged his bets and half-a$$ed the formation of the X-Men, it still means Xavier never really believed in it.

    The same goes with Magneto. Everything he’s done since just before or after — it kinda looks like before — X-Men #150, vol. 1, is also retconned. The original trial of Magneto, the original Inferno, the original issues #1-3, vol. 2, Genosha, ALL of it was supposedly some kind of long game to establish Krakoa.

    Of course, none of this makes any sense. None of it works. Where’s the sense of recognition by Xavier of the meaning behind the Sentinels appearing in #14, vol. 1? Where’s Magneto’s foreknowledge of the Wild Sentinels coming to destroy Genosha, in New X-Men #114, vol. 1 (really X-Men vol. 2 — too much renumbering!)?

    Moira X, Xavier and Magneto against the alien and apparently native forces of A.I. just doesn’t make sense outside of the context of the story Hickman was telling. I’m sure he would have resolved these issues if he had been allowed the chance, but instead it’s a lousy retcon that makes no sense when looked at how it fits into continuity, because it just does not fit.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    It’s a recon all the way back to X-Men #1, vol. #1. And it really doesn’t work. Xavier had the dream or he didn’t. If he hedged his bets and half-a$$ed the formation of the X-Men, it still means Xavier never really believed in it.
    Except he believed it. Moira herself said she had to break him for him to accept her view. Even implied Onslaught happened because of her attempts. And still Xavier said he believes his dream in X-men #4. You're making up a personal canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I
    The same goes with Magneto. Everything he’s done since just before or after — it kinda looks like before — X-Men #150, vol. 1, is also retconned. The original trial of Magneto, the original Inferno, the original issues #1-3, vol. 2, Genosha, ALL of it was supposedly some kind of long game to establish Krakoa.
    Except you're making this up, and canon flat-out indicates the opposite. His motivations to join the X-men INCREASE and make more sense with the retcon. Now he knew for sure he would lose for sure if he kept with his old methods, and had to change. Magneto fell out with Xavier and Moira in X-men #1-3 for real. Genosha is, if anything, an attempt to make a better mutant nation without Moira and Xavier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Of course, none of this makes any sense. None of it works. Where’s the sense of recognition by Xavier of the meaning behind the Sentinels appearing in #14, vol. 1? Where’s Magneto’s foreknowledge of the Wild Sentinels coming to destroy Genosha, in New X-Men #114, vol. 1 (really X-Men vol. 2 — too much renumbering!)?
    First of all, it's almost certain there's no Genosha in the previous lives- the Genosha's experiment with the Magistrates only happened because of Sugar Man, and Sugar Man only exists because of AoA- which itself only exists because of Legion, who is unique to this timeline.

    Second, even if Xavier recognized the Sentinels, what was he supposed to do? Moira told him any attempts to kill/brainwash Trask are useless, Sentinels appear anyway.

    Third, where's the recognition of Xavier that Magneto was his close friend of decades at any moment before the retcon? This was a much bigger one, but the people whining about Moira don't care, because they grew up with it, and if it's part of their nostalgia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Moira X, Xavier and Magneto against the alien and apparently native forces of A.I. just doesn’t make sense outside of the context of the story Hickman was telling. I’m sure he would have resolved these issues if he had been allowed the chance, but instead it’s a lousy retcon that makes no sense when looked at how it fits into continuity, because it just does not fit.
    No retcon in history fits 100% perfectly, but this fits much better than most. Again, if fits much better than Xavier being Magneto's buddy, but I don't see you complaining about that one. Or for example, Jean Grey being extremely attracted to Wolverine to the point she had to leave the mansion, rather than barely noticing him. Or the whole existence of Apocalypse (hell, surely someone would have heard of a guy destroying everything for centuries). And there's plenty of others. If we go to non-X-men, how about Captain America being on ice since 1945, when there years of stories after that?
    Last edited by Omega Alpha; 01-19-2022 at 04:50 PM.

  3. #123
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Except he believed it. Moira herself said she had to break him for him to accept her view. Even implied Onslaught happened because of her attempts. And still Xavier said he believes his dream in X-men #4. You're making up a personal canon.
    “Personal canon” is a weak-a$$ argument. Go read House of X #2 again. It retcons everything going back to X-Men #1, vol. 1, and not in a sensible way. That’s Marvel Comics’ canon, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Except you're making this up, and canon flat-out indicates the opposite. His motivations to join the X-men INCREASE and make more sense with the retcon. Now he knew for sure he would lose for sure if he kept with his old methods, and had to change. Magneto fell out with Xavier and Moira in X-men #1-3 for real. Genosha is, if anything, an attempt to make a better mutant nation without Moira and Xavier.
    No, I’m not making this up. Hickman did. Go read the issues I referenced. They are all big issues within Marvel Comics and X-Men publishing history. There is not a hint of what Hickman retconned into being. In fact, Magneto’s motivations against Moira in X-Men #1 through 3, vol. 2 are plainly stated. There’s nothing alluding to what Hickman has come up with 30+ years later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    First of all, it's almost certain there's no Genosha in the previous lives- the Genosha's experiment with the Magistrates only happened because of Sugar Man, and Sugar Man only exists because of AoA- which itself only exists because of Legion, who is unique to this timeline.

    Second, even if Xavier recognized the Sentinels, what was he supposed to do? Moira told him any attempts to kill/brainwash Trask are useless, Sentinels appear anyway.

    Third, where's the recognition of Xavier that Magneto was his close friend of decades at any moment before the retcon? This was a much bigger one, but the people whining about Moira don't care, because they grew up with it, and if it's part of their nostalgia.
    None of that refutes what I said. You’re just trying to justify Hickman’s $hitty retcon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    No retcon in history fits 100% perfectly, but this fits much better than most. Again, if fits much better than Xavier being Magneto's buddy, but I don't see you complaining about that one. Or for example, Jean Grey being extremely attracted to Wolverine to the point she had to leave the mansion, rather than barely noticing him. Or the whole existence of Apocalypse (hell, surely someone would have heard of a guy destroying everything for centuries). And there's plenty of others. If we go to non-X-men, how about Captain America being on ice since 1945, when there years of stories after that?
    Relying on how good or bad other retcons are does nothing to make the case for Hickman’s retcon, except to acknowledge that it’s not a good one.

    By the way, if I ran Marvel Comics, the way I would fix this is to bring back Hickman and have him finish his story. Hickman isn’t this sloppy. This is all the result of Hickman not being allowed to finish the work.
    Last edited by Brian B; 01-19-2022 at 05:15 PM.

  4. #124
    Incredible Member Tugger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    664

    Default

    The X-books have done absolutely nothing for me for years.

    I've recently been reading trades of Uncanny from #112-143, then #165-213, which I will never get tired of.

    At the time of publication and subsequent reading, I didn't mind the post Mutant Massacre stuff up to when Psylocke was turned into the Ninja babe but I just got up to Fall of the Mutants and it wasn't doing anything for me, so next time I won't go past MM.

    The last time I enjoyed the series was the Marauders trade which lead into Messiah Complex.

  5. #125
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Brian B I find myself sitting here and agreeing with everything you have said but that doesn't mean this Moira retcon can't be fixed or used to reset the Marvel Universe.

  6. #126
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Houseofhick View Post
    Brian B I find myself sitting here and agreeing with everything you have said but that doesn't mean this Moira retcon can't be fixed or used to reset the Marvel Universe.
    That is why I would love to see Hickman finish it. I just know he wouldn’t have left it as messy as this if he were allowed to finish it. I know he would have gone somewhere with this Moira X retcon. It would not have ended here.

  7. #127
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    17,185

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    That is why I would love to see Hickman finish it. I just know he wouldn’t have left it as messy as this if he were allowed to finish it. I know he would have gone somewhere with this Moira X retcon. It would not have ended here.
    Apparently Percy consulted with Hickman on X Lives/Deaths and now we see Deaths has a Moira focus, so there's that.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
    Krakoa, Arakko, and Otherworld forever!

  8. #128
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,421

    Default

    First of all, it's almost certain there's no Genosha in the previous lives- the Genosha's experiment with the Magistrates only happened because of Sugar Man, and Sugar Man only exists because of AoA- which itself only exists because of Legion, who is unique to this timeline.
    Did they ever explain how Moira's getting reborn thing works with the Age of Apocalypse? We saw her IN the AOA. If she new everything resets when she died, why didn't she just put a bullet in her brain when Apocalypse started going kill crazy?

    Second, even if Xavier recognized the Sentinels, what was he supposed to do? Moira told him any attempts to kill/brainwash Trask are useless, Sentinels appear anyway.
    It's hard for me to reconcile Xavier being a hero for most of his publishing history and trying to fight for a betetr world against impossible odds, and then NOT trying to do something because somebody told him it would be too hard.
    Last edited by Alan2099; 01-21-2022 at 03:58 PM.

  9. #129
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    That is why I would love to see Hickman finish it. I just know he wouldn’t have left it as messy as this if he were allowed to finish it. I know he would have gone somewhere with this Moira X retcon. It would not have ended here.
    From the very start he always said he'd put the toys back in the box so I completely agree.

  10. #130
    StRaNgE Member! Eskana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    177

    Default

    Neither, I guess. I'm okay with a status quo change, but I'm not crazy about Krakoa.

    Honestly, my first thought when reading HoX/PoX was like "Gee, the mutants are creating an island nation. AGAIN. how long 'til this blows up in their faces and they're sent back to the mansion again?"

    And I know that hasn't happened, and, like some people mentioned, the mansion's been all it can be... I don't mind if they never go back there, or at least for a while. I just wish the whole Krakoa set-up wasn't creating such a divide between mutants and humans. I prefer the idea of mutants and humans being able to create something together. I know that's probably not going to happen, but you know what would help... having human allies (and stop making them mutants too.)

    As it is, I'm figuring they're going to move to Mars before they move back to the mansion.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •