I miss the old Moira

[LordUltimus]

But moira is not a human she is a mutant well was, so what is stopping moira from helping now? Nothing but how she is chosen to be written. Hickman chose to write her as though just the idea of her having a truth of her own means she is a horrible person.

What? Are you missing my entire point? That's what I'm complaining about! That's the entire reason I made this thread!

[jwatson]

What? Are you missing my entire point? That's what I'm complaining about! That's the entire reason I made this thread!

And my initial answer was a never thought about her. None of that changed just because we've extended the conversation. i got your point. I don't miss her because i never thought of her but i'm talking about her now because you asked questions but i don't inherently care to be honest.

[LordUltimus]

And my initial answer was a never thought about her. None of that changed just because we've extended the conversation. i got your point. I don't miss her because i never thought of her but i'm talking about her now because you asked questions but i don't inherently care to be honest.

That's not where the conversation was heading, though. I feel like there was some miscommunication, but I can't figure out where it happened. So I'm just going to apologize and move on, alright?

[jwatson]

That's not where the conversation was heading, though. I feel like there was some miscommunication, but I can't figure out where it happened. So I'm just going to apologize and move on, alright?

Nothing to apologize for an fair enough.

I guess it's just to the topic moira is the one piece hickman basically put exactly back where she was but with more knowledge. She is human again, she has a new arm and no one knows what she did but the council. Moira could stumble in and accidentally meet rahne or contact banshee tomorrow and be like the phalanx held her captive look at my new arm and the council most likely would not say boo because she knows what they know and as such still has power over them. Maybe that is what Doug is hoping for that moira will just go back to muir island and find herself again.

[Omega Alpha]

Hence the point about introducing a new character would have been better.

A new character would inevitably raise the question "so there's this character that is crucial to the history of the X-men and changes everything... but no one ever heard about it or had any hint whatsoever about it's existence and importance...until now?". That would be forced as hell.and would inevitably lead to people complaining that he should have used an established character instead.

[LordUltimus]

Nothing to apologize for an fair enough.

I guess it's just to the topic moira is the one piece hickman basically put exactly back where she was but with more knowledge. She is human again, she has a new arm and no one knows what she did but the council. Moira could stumble in and accidentally meet rahne or contact banshee tomorrow and be like the phalanx held her captive look at my new arm and the council most likely would not say boo because she knows what they know and as such still has power over them. Maybe that is what Doug is hoping for that moira will just go back to muir island and find herself again.

It's not really the same, though, because she has all this baggage. She's technically still not human, any more than the depowered mutants after M-Day were, and she can't really "find herself again" when that person was explicitly a lie this whole time.

[LordUltimus]

A new character would inevitably raise the question "so there's this character that is crucial to the history of the X-men and changes everything... but no one ever heard about it or had any hint whatsoever about it's existence and importance...until now?". That would be forced as hell.and would inevitably lead to people complaining that he should have used an established character instead.

You mean like it being really forced that a character we thought we knew was actually completely different and is actually crucial to the history of the X-Men and changes everything even though there was never any hint whatsoever about their importance?

[tornshattered]

I am glad people are finally saying this. I have disliked this change ever since HOX2. I had really hoped that at the end of the Krakoan storyline, Moira would die, reset the universe and wipe her memory, restoring her true self in a new timeline. It appears this will not happen.

I have always loved Moira as a character. She had a great personality - stubborn, sometimes grumpy, yet always very kind. She became a mother figure to Rahne, a girl with more baggage than Stansted Airport, and helped her become a semi-functioning woman. Hell, she was the mother of the X-Men. She did everything in her power to help the Mutants, sometimes compromising her morals and even contracting the Legacy Virus as a result of her dedication. It is a shame she became nothing, but a plot point.

To be completely honest, whilst I only began reading the comics in 2007, having read back issues, X-Men have felt wrong ever since 2001's New X-Men. Whilst there have been runs I enjoyed (including Morrison's own run), the overall X-Men story has not felt right since. Whilst going public and becoming a superhero high school were big reasons why the X-Men have lost their appeal for me, the loss of Moira around the same time was also a huge factor. The dream of peaceful coexistence was built on friendships the X-Men had with their human allies, including Carol Danvers, the mutants' parents (where are they, honestly?), Madelyne Pryor, Stevie, etc. That is all but gone now. The X-Men are completely isolated from the rest of humanity. They can barely be considered human anymore.

I suppose that's the discord of the real world showing up in comics. People are more politically divided than in the last two/three decades. Conservative and liberal voters appear to be at constant war with each other. Nobody bothers to be kind to each other, let alone civil. I guess I am just tired of it and would like to see some hope, even if it is in the comics.

I am sorry for this emotional ramble. I do not often log in to comment anymore, but I have felt this very heavily and needed to get off my chest. Sorrow for the world has become a close friend.

[Omega Alpha]

You mean like it being really forced that a character we thought we knew was actually completely different and is actually crucial to the history of the X-Men and changes everything even though there was never any hint whatsoever about their importance?

We already knew Moira a) Existed b) Was a key advisor to Xavier and played a role in building the X-men c).Was.an important scientist d) Had a major fallout with Magneto e) Was the ONLY human to get the Legacy Virus f) Was killed by Mystique because Destiny told her to, or something along those lines g) Was always very concerned about the future of mutants. The retcon expands on those and adds new backstory to some key moments, it doesn't create a key character out of nowhere.

[LordUltimus]

We already knew Moira a) Existed b) Was a key advisor to Xavier and played a role in building the X-men c).Was.an important scientist d) Had a major fallout with Magneto e) Was the ONLY human to get the Legacy Virus f) Was killed by Mystique because Destiny told her to, or something along those lines g) Was always very concerned about the future of mutants. The retcon expands on those and adds new backstory to some key moments, it doesn't create a key character out of nowhere.

Yeah, it kind of does. Making her a mutant alone completely changes the role of the character.

[Omega Alpha]

Yeah, it kind of does. Making her a mutant alone completely changes the role of the character.

I'm not saying it doesn't change the character, but, no, it does not create a new character out of nowhere. Like I said, all the key backstory still fits, just changes in part (admittedly a big one) her motivations. From wanting to support mutantkind because she has close mutant friends from her being a mutant herself. Hell, even Moira supporting eradicating mutants was seen in AoA.

[LordUltimus]

I'm not saying it doesn't change the character, but, no, it does not create a new character out of nowhere. Like I said, all the key backstory still fits, just changes in part (admittedly a big one) her motivations. From wanting to support mutantkind because she has close mutant friends from her being a mutant herself. Hell, even Moira supporting eradicating mutants was seen in AoA.

I don't think comparing alternate realities is particularly fair. If this was a temporary Moira, this wouldn't be an issue. And all that backstory stuff is pretty much just trivia, her personality is completely different.

[Omega Alpha]

I don't think comparing alternate realities is particularly fair. If this was a temporary Moira, this wouldn't be an issue. And all that backstory stuff is pretty much just trivia, her personality is completely different.

I just don't see her personality being that different. I'll quote Superjosh again here:

My two cents: I still see Moira in Moira X. What's been done to make her a mutant and retcon her storyline is done, so what we have left is the characterization.

I still see a driven, stubborn, brilliant, and unstoppable woman. Moira X to me is Moira MacTaggert driven to the brink of madness with what she's had to endure. At the core, she still wants to help mutantkind and that's really the essence of her character. (She was always the person, i.e. plot device, that the X-Men went to for help.) Only, she has become this sort of mad scientist version of herself.
.

It's a version of Moira that pretty much breaks bad or comes very close to it, but it's still Moira.

[LordUltimus]

I just don't see her personality being that different. I'll quote Superjosh again here:



It's a version of Moira that pretty much breaks bad or comes very close to it, but it's still Moira.

That's like saying Cyclops having secretly decided to kill all the humans all along and was lying about loving his friends and family and Xavier's Dream is still Cyclops as long as he's sufficiently driven while doing it. Besides, I don't see Moira's defining trait being "driven to protect mutantkind at all costs", I saw her compassion and empathy as her defining traits.

[Ambaryerno]

I guess we disagree on a fundamental level. I don't wanna see characters acting ooc to get a good story.

If a character has to be written OOC to make a story work, the quality of that story is SERIOUSLY suspect to begin with.