I miss the old Moira

[Agent Z]

Lol I think they’ve for the most part stopped doing that for every “accent” and good riddance. Like the way they’d spell Rogue’s dialogue differently… as if her American English was not equivalent.

This I agree with.

[Baron of Faltine]

My new ship: Pym + Moira

Is interesting....I always thought that Ultron should have played more role in X-men considering he hate all organic life. And considering recent developments in orchids..perhaps is time for this shipping to exist....but not in the way anyone would love, apart me. Love soem good old genocidal ai...(ihave no mouth and I must scream AM remain the best...also the only one with a reason for the cyber bile fueled HATE humankind. Ultron and Nimrodn should take lesson)
....I

[WallStreeter]

I think what hurt Moira the most is an over saturation of Genetic scientists or to take it a step further a rise of experts in multiple fields. Hank Pym in Avengers was hurt by this. He was an expert in biochemistry. Then others where knowledgeable in that. Then he went from someone who was an pioneer to the guy who shrinks stuff. His expertise became redundant and then he lost relevance as his role in the Avengers also lost relevance, used more for his personal relationships then his scientific knowledge. He became more important as the guy who The Wasp loved. And then when he lost that he fell further.

We have so many super scientists now so Moira’s role in that field is just one more geneticist. Why not use Sinister, Hank or Kavita instead. Or Nemesis..or whoever I am forgetting.

Moiras relationships with Xavier lost importance and she got closer to Sean and Rahne. Two characters that haven’t had numerous appearances while Moira was dead. Marvel sort of cut off that corner and started building on something new.

Plus, the X-Men have another woman doctor. Dr. Reyes. Anything Moira could know about tech? There’s Sage.

Definitely see your point.

[Baron of Faltine]

Plus, the X-Men have another woman doctor. Dr. Reyes. Anything Moira could know about tech? There’s Sage.

Definitely see your point.

Yeah is something worth discussing not jus tin x-men board but for all superhero comics. The proliferation of all purpose geniuses had kind of diluted the concept of science specialist. Or also characters whose superpower is to be ubergood at a type of science/technology like Forge.
While in someway it was necessary to explain how some lone wolf can come up with insane scientific discovery it also not help, because whoor what build or those labs, even if the scientist also had some architecture degree and just straight forward designed it? Where the stuff to make the lab/lair come from? (Is the classic hey where batman stuff come from, from logistic point? Question)
Giving more humanity would make thing oddly simpler.
Plus would be interesting if there sort ofa kind of evil version of damage control who build this sort of stuff for supervillains and mad scientist. ( for a while that sort role was covered by Roxxon if I remember right)

[Brian B]

This is my single biggest problem with Krakoa (not the only, but probably the biggest): The ENTIRE THING is built on a massive retcon that pretty much destroys the core identity of the character at the heart of it.

It’s worse than that. It retcons EVERYTHING including the formation of the X-Men, as seen in issue #1, vol. 1, to some plot hatched by Moira and influencing Xavier in everything he has done since then with his X-Men.

It’s just preposterous. I don’t blame Hickman, either. I blame Marvel for not letting Hickman finish the story.

[Brian B]

Bottomline: the fact is you can take Hickman's Moira, change her name, and you would lose literally nothing by making her a completely different character with a different name.

You are not wrong.

[Omega Alpha]

It’s worse than that. It retcons EVERYTHING including the formation of the X-Men, as seen in issue #1, vol. 1, to some plot hatched by Moira and influencing Xavier in everything he has done since then with his X-Men.

It’s just preposterous. I don’t blame Hickman, either. I blame Marvel for not letting Hickman finish the story.

Again, this is head canon. We know for a fact the X-men exist even without Moira- we see in life #2 Moira watching Xavier's outing himself speech lifted verbatim from Morrison's NXM (technically, that was Cassandra Nova's speech), clearly indicating that until that point, things went more or less the same (then Moira died, and of course they reset). We also see that Moira tried for years to break Xavier away from his dream and was not successful. The X-men exist with or without Moira, Krakoa doesn't.

[Brian B]

Again, this is head canon. We know for a fact the X-men exist even without Moira- we see in life #2 Moira watching Xavier's outing himself speech lifted verbatim from Morrison's NXM (technically, that was Cassandra Nova's speech), clearly indicating that until that point, things went more or less the same (then Moira died, and of course they reset). We also see that Moira tried for years to break Xavier away from his dream and was not successful. The X-men exist with or without Moira, Krakoa doesn't.

That’s not “head canon.” That’s a b.s. argument. It is on the page. It is in the comics. House of X #2. It is not my canon. It is now Marvel Comics canon. If you have a problem with Moira X retconning everything back to before X-Men #1, vol. 1, I suggest taking it up with Marvel Comics, not me. Marvel made it canon. That is not my interpretation. It is on the page.

[LordUltimus]

Just have Moira and Moira X coexist as characters. It's time travel, there's been plenty of weird nonsensical things that have happened because of that. The "Vision's body" retcon in Avengers Forever comes to mind. I'd be much nicer to Moira X if she didn't erase the previous Moira entirely; it's not as if we didn't see the occasional mutant Moira in Exiles.

[Houseofhick]

Again, this is head canon. We know for a fact the X-men exist even without Moira- we see in life #2 Moira watching Xavier's outing himself speech lifted verbatim from Morrison's NXM (technically, that was Cassandra Nova's speech), clearly indicating that until that point, things went more or less the same (then Moira died, and of course they reset). We also see that Moira tried for years to break Xavier away from his dream and was not successful. The X-men exist with or without Moira, Krakoa doesn't.

So when Moira died everything from that point up to House Of X didn't happen because they reset? Is that what you are saying?

[Saithor]

I mean, we still don't know if Moira purposely let House of M happen or not, or some of the other events (People have already mentioned how some of her previous lifes seemed to be mostly following continuity, and we know Phoenix 5 happened in at least one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Genosha was on that list as well. At the bare minimum they should have probably been aware Cassandra Nova existed). The continuity of this is honestly too big to untangle completely.

[Zelena]

Again, this is head canon. We know for a fact the X-men exist even without Moira- we see in life #2 Moira watching Xavier's outing himself speech lifted verbatim from Morrison's NXM (technically, that was Cassandra Nova's speech), clearly indicating that until that point, things went more or less the same (then Moira died, and of course they reset). We also see that Moira tried for years to break Xavier away from his dream and was not successful. The X-men exist with or without Moira, Krakoa doesn't.

And before Hickman wrote this, what did we think? Not that. The “reality” was not this. We enjoy comics for things that happen when we read… Without readers who read comics, there are no comics, just sheets of paper.

If I choose not to consider Hickman’s work, the canon is not the one you say.

[Omega Alpha]

So when Moira died everything from that point up to House Of X didn't happen because they reset? Is that what you are saying?

Heh...I'm not sure what is your question?

I mean, we still don't know if Moira purposely let House of M happen or not, or some of the other events (People have already mentioned how some of her previous lifes seemed to be mostly following continuity, and we know Phoenix 5 happened in at least one of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Genosha was on that list as well. At the bare minimum they should have probably been aware Cassandra Nova existed). The continuity of this is honestly too big to untangle completely.

Genosha didn't happen because the magistrates thing happened because of Sugar Man, who only exists because of AoA, which only exists because of Legion.

House of M is unclear, though.

And before Hickman wrote this, what did we think? Not that. The “reality” was not this. We enjoy comics for things that happen when we read… Without readers who read comics, there are no comics, just sheets of paper.

If I choose not to consider Hickman’s work, the canon is not the one you say.

If I sure to not consider Claremont's run, then the X-men are just the 05. If I choose to not consider Morrison's run, Genosha is alive and well. If chose to not consider Whedon's AXM run, then Colossus is still dead, though considering how he is being written by Percy, that probably would be for the best.

[LordUltimus]

A reminder that Moira is now guilty of genocide in a previous timeline:

[Raz]

Hickman's stories really lack heart. You can enjoy the grand sci-fi concepts, but it takes other writers to actually make the characters feel like themselves.

This is what made me stop reading his Avengers and FF at some point - man has great story ideas, but everything is so CLINICAL. I feel like he's improved, but he's still not actually *good* at writing natural human interactions, look how cringe his Summers family X-Men issues were.

Also your Moira/Madelyne comparison is a good one...honestly I'm still salty about Madelyne, she was such an important character in the Outback days and then overnight she got turned into a cartoon supervillain. Moira's the same; I do actually love the Krakoa era, it's invigorated my interest in the X-books, but I hate that they had to destroy Moira to do it and it's kind of worrying that it's okay for female supporting characters to get completely screwed over in service of some dude's grand story idea (Sharon Friedlander and Karima Shapindur say hi)