I miss the old Moira

[LordUltimus]

This is what made me stop reading his Avengers and FF at some point - man has great story ideas, but everything is so CLINICAL. I feel like he's improved, but he's still not actually *good* at writing natural human interactions, look how cringe his Summers family X-Men issues were.

Also your Moira/Madelyne comparison is a good one...honestly I'm still salty about Madelyne, she was such an important character in the Outback days and then overnight she got turned into a cartoon supervillain. Moira's the same; I do actually love the Krakoa era, it's invigorated my interest in the X-books, but I hate that they had to destroy Moira to do it and it's kind of worrying that it's okay for female supporting characters to get completely screwed over in service of some dude's grand story idea (Sharon Friedlander and Karima Shapindur say hi)

Honestly, Moira got it worse than Maddie. Maddie was around for only a short while (relatively) and basically doomed the minute Jean came back. Moira's basic character was around for over forty years (yes, I'm counting the time she was dead, if Gwen Stacy was revealed to be alive and a mutant and everything about her a lie I'd say the same thing), and there was basically nothing that made editorial want her gone other than her being a human that was actually nice.

[Omega Alpha]

Madelyne is a very different case from anyone else, in that she was a character whose entire conception was extremely misguided in the first place- not that she couldn't exist, with pretty much the same personality, but from the moment Claremont made her a doppelganger of Jean Grey she was done for. No healthy relationship has ever begun with "I just met this girl who looks exactly like my dead girlfriend and now we're getting married".

Even if they didn't bring back Jean Grey, the moment Claremont left and a writer with some common sense took over, Maddie was done for. Can you imagine, say, Grant Morrison not exploring the absurdity of the situation when he took over?

I'll continue to say until he proves me otherwise that Claremont say Vertigo and misunderstood it utterly and completely, and the fact he still can't let go of the whole non-sense after nearly 40 decades doesn't speak too well of him. Makes him look like, well, Scottie from Vertigo.

With Karima, she basically just completed the cycle of Omega Sentinel that Xavier and Magneto managed to her out of the first time. Still, I don't doubt Hickman would have reverted her to what she was before if he managed to finish his run like he wanted.

As for Moira, again, where's all that love for her that she stayed dead for 20 years after dying in a minor story with barely a peep? Where's all the hundreds of "BRING BACK MOIRA NOW!" petitions with thousands of signings? Meh...

[LordUltimus]

As for Moira, again, where's all that love for her that she stayed dead for 20 years after dying in a minor story with barely a peep? Where's all the hundreds of "BRING BACK MOIRA NOW!" petitions with thousands of signings? Meh...

I would have preferred she stayed dead over this. X Deaths of Wolverine continues her hating mutants, so you can't even say her motivations were slightly the same.

[Saithor]

Madelyne is a very different case from anyone else, in that she was a character whose entire conception was extremely misguided in the first place- not that she couldn't exist, with pretty much the same personality, but from the moment Claremont made her a doppelganger of Jean Grey she was done for. No healthy relationship has ever begun with "I just met this girl who looks exactly like my dead girlfriend and now we're getting married".

Even if they didn't bring back Jean Grey, the moment Claremont left and a writer with some common sense took over, Maddie was done for. Can you imagine, say, Grant Morrison not exploring the absurdity of the situation when he took over?

I'll continue to say until he proves me otherwise that Claremont say Vertigo and misunderstood it utterly and completely, and the fact he still can't let go of the whole non-sense after nearly 40 decades doesn't speak too well of him. Makes him look like, well, Scottie from Vertigo.

With Karima, she basically just completed the cycle of Omega Sentinel that Xavier and Magneto managed to her out of the first time. Still, I don't doubt Hickman would have reverted her to what she was before if he managed to finish his run like he wanted.

As for Moira, again, where's all that love for her that she stayed dead for 20 years after dying in a minor story with barely a peep? Where's all the hundreds of "BRING BACK MOIRA NOW!" petitions with thousands of signings? Meh...

There's a difference between being dead and being brought back with your entire character rewritten...

[Zelena]

There's a difference between being dead and being brought back with your entire character rewritten...

The way I see is that a rewritten character is not the same character: same name, roughly same appearance but different personnality.

In many ways, Hickman’s Moira is not Moira, the kind and strong woman we once knew…

[The Cool Thatguy]

I remember someone describing Hickman's writing as mechanical, and I realize now that's my real issue with Moira X

Before, Moira was a character. She was a mother to Rahne, lover to Banshee, and supporter of Excalibur. We knew the who and why of Moira, and could easily see her as a person.

Moira X is just a plot devise. She's not relevant to anyone but Magneto and Xavier. We're told who she is, not shown.

More than that, she robs most of the X-Franchise of agency, because Moira's past lives allow her to see everything up to the island formation. All prior to Hickman, Magneto and Xavier had a roadmap of how to do things, and had a reset button.

Moira was a well developed character.

Moira X is a flat plot devise, shoved into the place of an old character in an attempt to make us care

[LordUltimus]

I remember someone describing Hickman's writing as mechanical, and I realize now that's my real issue with Moira X

Before, Moira was a character. She was a mother to Rahne, lover to Banshee, and supporter of Excalibur. We knew the who and why of Moira, and could easily see her as a person.

Moira X is just a plot devise. She's not relevant to anyone but Magneto and Xavier. We're told who she is, not shown.

More than that, she robs most of the X-Franchise of agency, because Moira's past lives allow her to see everything up to the island formation. All prior to Hickman, Magneto and Xavier had a roadmap of how to do things, and had a reset button.

Moira was a well developed character.

Moira X is a flat plot devise, shoved into the place of an old character in an attempt to make us care

Very well said. Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Slicknickshady]

This. But I’ve been saying this since this era started. People have laughed at me. Glad I’m not the only one who thinks it’s BS what they did.

Claremont has a right to be heated and pissed. Just like I am.

[LordUltimus]

This. But I’ve been saying this since this era started. People have laughed at me. Glad I’m not the only one who thinks it’s BS what they did.

Claremont has a right to be heated and pissed. Just like I am.

There's definitely an increase in pushback. The people who were on the fence are starting to fall off it, and not on Krakoa's side.

[thjan]

Yep, he ruined her for nothing. I still remember everyone who adored HoX/PoX condescendingly telling people that didn't like the retcon that it made her one of the most important characters in the franchise instead of a dead and "forgotten" supporting player. Never mind that it completely changed her character, motivations, and status as one of the few true human allies, did this really turn out to be a big improvement? She sat out all of the Hickman era outside of the beginning and ending short series, did not really matter in Inferno, and now instead of being gone but fondly remembered, she is a potential villain or antagonist to the X-Men in the future. I mean are you truly telling me that Hickman could not have created this new Krakoan status quo without tarnishing Moira's memory and character? Was what Hickman did with her outside the retcon worth destroying a well liked character? Yeah, there may not have been many people clamoring to have her back alive, but I doubt there was anyone that disliked the character or wanted her to stay dead.

[Glio]

Nobody talked about Moira in years before HoX. I didn't see nobody here saying "I wish Moira was back"

[Zelena]

Nobody talked about Moira in years before HoX. I didn't see nobody here saying "I wish Moira was back"

I know comics are different but, usually, when people are dead, it’s irreversible.

Some pictures with emotion:

[davetvs]

I know comics are different but, usually, when people are dead, it’s irreversible.

The poster was clearly talking about the fandom, not the characters themselves...and they're right. All of this hand-wringing over Moira's new characterization does sound like disingenuous fanboy whining. They changed it, now it sucks, even though I wasn't thinking about it at all before they changed it, but here I am to constantly complain about it anyway. If you "miss the old Moira," go read the stories she was in. They haven't gone anywhere, and since so many of you clearly cherry-pick canon to your own personal tastes and ideas, what's to stop you from continuing to do that? You can ignore HoX/Inferno/Krakoa if you so choose.

[Zelena]

The poster was clearly talking about the fandom, not the characters themselves...and they're right. All of this hand-wringing over Moira's new characterization does sound like disingenuous fanboy whining. They changed it, now it sucks, even though I wasn't thinking about it at all before they changed it, but here I am to constantly complain about it anyway. If you "miss the old Moira," go read the stories she was in.

Oh, I don’t expect Hickman to write like Claremont. His X-men are not “the X-men”.

[AdamFTF]

As for Moira, again, where's all that love for her that she stayed dead for 20 years after dying in a minor story with barely a peep? Where's all the hundreds of "BRING BACK MOIRA NOW!" petitions with thousands of signings? Meh...

Do . . . do people really do that for any of these characters? It seems a bit extreme. I mean, Skin was one of my two favorite characters from Generation X (Skin and Jubilee), but when he was dead I didn't go around starting petitions and stuff. I just mentioned that he was a favorite and that I missed him from time to time. And when Colossus died to stop the Legacy Virus, I was upset for a couple days, but I certainly didn't rage about the "injustice of it all". Is that the only way in this world to show that you like and miss a comic book character, to go to abosultely ludicrous levels of outrage and community organization?