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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I thought the whole point of her powers was that she was immune to anything that would usually affect mutants anyways, like Cerebro. If that's the case, the Legacy Virus shouldn't affect her anyways.

    It made her corruption less interesting because she was already corrupt.
    I dunno about that. Given how many lives she was an assassin, kind of put a different spin on the "highlander" makeover she got during the time. I also haven't re-read Excalibur issues with her in them, yet.

  2. #167
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythicalChicken View Post
    I dunno about that. Given how many lives she was an assassin, kind of put a different spin on the "highlander" makeover she got during the time. I also haven't re-read Excalibur issues with her in them, yet.
    Exactly. If she already had that sort of intense combat training, it makes her sudden gaining the powers less impressive, and raise questions as to why she didn't use those ninja skills all the time. Plus, why didn't Shadow King now know that Moira was a mutant after this?
    Last edited by LordUltimus; 01-21-2022 at 08:11 PM.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I thought the whole point of her powers was that she was immune to anything that would usually affect mutants anyways, like Cerebro. If that's the case, the Legacy Virus shouldn't affect her anyways.

    It made her corruption less interesting because she was already corrupt.
    Given how biology is a complex matter, maybe it’s not a good way to consider that being a mutant is like a “switch” : either you are a mutant or you are not.

    Anyway, the change in personality is a misstep, some people don’t care, other do. But, anyway, I miss the old Xavier too… I don’t see the point in using characters who have a past if you care so little about their past.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythicalChicken View Post
    As far as retcons go, Moira's a fascinating case.

    First off, I always wondered how only ONE human ever got the Legacy Virus ever since that plot point started. Well duh, she's actually a mutant. First thing I thought reading HoXPoX

    It also made her corruption by Shadow King all the more interesting. The other is it makes re-reading Moira appearances have so much more subtext
    Yes. She’s actually a mutant, so that’s why she was the only human to get the legacy virus. It also makes Mystique killing the Shi’ar golem of Moira interesting, considering Destiny and Mystique killed Moira off in an earlier life. I feel Hickman just escoltes some old plots in making Moira into a mutant.

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I thought the whole point of her powers was that she was immune to anything that would usually affect mutants anyways, like Cerebro. If that's the case, the Legacy Virus shouldn't affect her anyways.
    .
    No, she's just immune to detection.

  6. #171
    Mighty Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    She has been replaced by a completely different character. That is not retconning done right. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.
    You are not going to change my mind. I think HOXPOX is an excellent story, a franchise high, and elevated an irrelevant character like Moira in a delightfully subversive way. Nobody even cared about Moira before so I'm not sure who you were supposed to be missing, anyhow.

  7. #172
    Mighty Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    You are not going to change my mind. I think HOXPOX is an excellent story, a franchise high, and elevated an irrelevant character like Moira in a delightfully subversive way. Nobody even cared about Moira before so I'm not sure who you were supposed to be missing, anyhow.
    Lazy. What you really mean is “I didn’t even care about Moira before so I’m not sure why anybody else would”.
    “Alas, the pizza party has ended.” - Victor von Doom, Iron Man #642

  8. #173
    Mighty Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARkadelphia View Post
    Lazy. What you really mean is “I didn’t even care about Moira before so I’m not sure why anybody else would”.
    I think I just missed all of the enthusiastic clamor for her return...wherever that was happening.

  9. #174
    Incredible Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Nobody even cared about Moira before so I'm not sure who you were supposed to be missing, anyhow.
    You know that is false.

    Sure she was dead but so where and are other characters. What is probably a more correct statement is: “ No one currently in charge of Marvel cared for Moira”. If you like the retcon fine. Just remember that other people liked her before and as retcons go it was a massive one. We are still sifting through the changes.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    You are not going to change my mind. I think HOXPOX is an excellent story, a franchise high, and elevated an irrelevant character like Moira in a delightfully subversive way. Nobody even cared about Moira before so I'm not sure who you were supposed to be missing, anyhow.
    Honestly, is anyone really going to change someone's mind here?
    Trying something like that on the internet has long been deemed futile by common wisdom, especialy when it comes to social media, fandoms and discussion boards.

    All people have the hills on which they are willing to die on and it's allready difficult enough to get anyone down from theirs when you are in personal real world relationships with them (friends, family, companies, etc.).

    The more reasonable goal of a debate, argument or discussion on the internet (and usualy where the "fun" lies) is to reach an understanding on the different/opposing viewpoints/opinions or find common ground in parts, when it comes to lighthearted, impersonal or non-serious topics.

    If no such point in even these topic can be achieved, it's usualy better to let the whole thing rest or only continue with those who are still willing to reach such compromises.

    Which seems to be the state here.

  11. #176
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    As much as I liked Moira before, she was undeniably not someone like Jean Grey, that had dedicated fandom eagerly awaiting his return, or like Cable, that had people complaining about the new baby version from the start and counting the days until the OG returned.

    She was someone destined to be what Captain Jean DeWolff or George Stacy are to Spider-Man, a human supporting character that was liked back in the day, but then is killed, gets the heroes angry, but then is mostly forgotten apart from the odd reference here and there, and clearly will never return. And to make things worse, it's not like she died in classic story that is still popular, but in a filler issue designed to clean house for when a new writer arrives.

  12. #177
    Incredible Member Writerblog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    You know that is false.

    Sure she was dead but so where and are other characters. What is probably a more correct statement is: “ No one currently in charge of Marvel cared for Moira”. If you like the retcon fine. Just remember that other people liked her before and as retcons go it was a massive one. We are still sifting through the changes.
    She was gone but not forgotten. Some people having been reading comics for long and it shows. She is Proteus mom, had a long term relationship with Banshee. She was definitely important

  13. #178
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    It never been addressed how would the characters(Banshee, Wolfsbane, Proteous) would react when Moira is alive .

    Is this plot holes? In 616 timeline Moira was dead(She has monument of Moira Hospital.
    If Moira(Moira X) is alive today does all the story should have been reset.
    , This is a New Moira which has the knowledge of past lives.

    Then other characters does not have story connection to her then why does she know her as a dead person .

  14. #179
    Incredible Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    As much as I liked Moira before, she was undeniably not someone like Jean Grey, that had dedicated fandom eagerly awaiting his return, or like Cable, that had people complaining about the new baby version from the start and counting the days until the OG returned.

    She was someone destined to be what Captain Jean DeWolff or George Stacy are to Spider-Man, a human supporting character that was liked back in the day, but then is killed, gets the heroes angry, but then is mostly forgotten apart from the odd reference here and there, and clearly will never return. And to make things worse, it's not like she died in classic story that is still popular, but in a filler issue designed to clean house for when a new writer arrives.
    I think what hurt Moira the most is an over saturation of Genetic scientists or to take it a step further a rise of experts in multiple fields. Hank Pym in Avengers was hurt by this. He was an expert in biochemistry. Then others where knowledgeable in that. Then he went from someone who was an pioneer to the guy who shrinks stuff. His expertise became redundant and then he lost relevance as his role in the Avengers also lost relevance, used more for his personal relationships then his scientific knowledge. He became more important as the guy who The Wasp loved. And then when he lost that he fell further.

    We have so many super scientists now so Moira’s role in that field is just one more geneticist. Why not use Sinister, Hank or Kavita instead. Or Nemesis..or whoever I am forgetting.

    Moiras relationships with Xavier lost importance and she got closer to Sean and Rahne. Two characters that haven’t had numerous appearances while Moira was dead. Marvel sort of cut off that corner and started building on something new.

  15. #180
    Mighty Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    I think what hurt Moira the most is an over saturation of Genetic scientists or to take it a step further a rise of experts in multiple fields. Hank Pym in Avengers was hurt by this. He was an expert in biochemistry. Then others where knowledgeable in that. Then he went from someone who was an pioneer to the guy who shrinks stuff. His expertise became redundant and then he lost relevance as his role in the Avengers also lost relevance, used more for his personal relationships then his scientific knowledge. He became more important as the guy who The Wasp loved. And then when he lost that he fell further.

    We have so many super scientists now so Moira’s role in that field is just one more geneticist. Why not use Sinister, Hank or Kavita instead. Or Nemesis..or whoever I am forgetting.

    Moiras relationships with Xavier lost importance and she got closer to Sean and Rahne. Two characters that haven’t had numerous appearances while Moira was dead. Marvel sort of cut off that corner and started building on something new.
    My new ship: Pym + Moira
    “Alas, the pizza party has ended.” - Victor von Doom, Iron Man #642

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