I miss the old Moira

[Ambaryerno]

It's unforgivably stupid of X writers to not understand that people can feel passionately about the rights of a people without being of said people.

And it was amazingly lazy of Hickman to make Moira a secret mutant

In fact I’m sure there’s any number of existing characters who could have done this same plot without needing to retcon her, IE Tempus.

[Havok83]

It's unforgivably stupid of X writers to not understand that people can feel passionately about the rights of a people without being of said people.

And it was amazingly lazy of Hickman to make Moira a secret mutant

Lazy? What he did with her was genius and anything but lazy

[Frontier]

Lazy? What he did with her was genius and anything but lazy

I think he went into a lot of work in terms of all the various lives and the impact they have on current continuity.

Characterization-wise? Not so much.

[Omega Alpha]

In fact I’m sure there’s any number of existing characters who could have done this same plot without needing to retcon her, IE Tempus.

That's non-sense. First of all, by the very nature of the revelations, a retcon would be required. Second, the only character that fits the mold of knowing Xavier since he was in college, being connected to Magneto and already established as a part of important moments of the X-Men is Moira. It's either her or a brand new character. And then every single person whining about Moira would be whining about Hickman making his new pet character as important as Xavier and Magneto, and saying he should have used Moira instead

[Chris0013]

I don't know who had it worse...Moira or Beast.

[Slicknickshady]

Or Nature Girl. Or Apocalypse.

They ruined the legacy of many great characters. Moira, Beast, Nature Girl, Apocalypse. Made the characters so unlike themselves.

Lazy? What he did with her was genius and anything but lazy

You can’t be serious. It was very lazy. He should have created his own character and have that character do this stuff. Not Moira.

[Slicknickshady]

She committed genocide in her previous lives. She was never not a villain.

It can be retconned that this was never really Moira. So yeah that can be took away if done correctly.

[Havok83]

Or Nature Girl. Or Apocalypse.

They ruined the legacy of many great characters. Moira, Beast, Nature Girl, Apocalypse. Made the characters so unlike themselves.



You can’t be serious. It was very lazy. He should have created his own character and have that character do this stuff. Not Moira.

I definitely said what I said and am very serious. HOX #2 is one of the most genius issue of X-men of the past decade. A lot of thought went into that so I can’t ever claim that was lazy. The stuff done there to recontextualize her was genius. She has since been destroyed but simply making her a mutant didn’t do that

Nature Girl had no legacy nor was she a great character. I also think the stuff done with Apocalypse was the best work he’s ever had since FoTM. People don’t like to admit it but the character was largely overrated and sucked as a villain in 616. He got some much needed layers after years of being an absolute joke

[Ambaryerno]

That's non-sense. First of all, by the very nature of the revelations, a retcon would be required. Second, the only character that fits the mold of knowing Xavier since he was in college, being connected to Magneto and already established as a part of important moments of the X-Men is Moira. It's either her or a brand new character. And then every single person whining about Moira would be whining about Hickman making his new pet character as important as Xavier and Magneto, and saying he should have used Moira instead

If you recall, Tempus DID meet Xavier while Xavier was in college.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Lazy? What he did with her was genius and anything but lazy

You're right, it wasn't lazy.

It was super duper, maximum laziness.

All Hickman did was declare Moira a mutant. He never even bothered to link anything together to sell the idea. At all.

The only reason that it came as such a shock is because she was a long standing character.

And in doing so, Hickman undermined the X-franchise's basic agency, up until his run.

So you are right, it wasn't lazy.

It was epic lazy.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's non-sense. First of all, by the very nature of the revelations, a retcon would be required. Second, the only character that fits the mold of knowing Xavier since he was in college, being connected to Magneto and already established as a part of important moments of the X-Men is Moira. It's either her or a brand new character. And then every single person whining about Moira would be whining about Hickman making his new pet character as important as Xavier and Magneto, and saying he should have used Moira instead

Can someone explain to me why it's important that the plot devise knew Charles in college?

Other than to take the X-Men's agency away?

[LordUltimus]

In fact I’m sure there’s any number of existing characters who could have done this same plot without needing to retcon her, IE Tempus.

Chirst, Amelia Vought was RIGHT THERE.

[Chris0013]

You're right, it wasn't lazy.

It was super duper, maximum laziness.

All Hickman did was declare Moira a mutant. He never even bothered to link anything together to sell the idea. At all.

The only reason that it came as such a shock is because she was a long standing character. AND SHE WAS DEAD!!!

And in doing so, Hickman undermined the X-franchise's basic agency, up until his run.

So you are right, it wasn't lazy.

It was epic lazy.

You forget something...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Chirst, Amelia Vought was RIGHT THERE.

I know, right?

She'd make more stinkin' sense too

[LordUltimus]

You forget something...

By this logic, bringing her back without any retcons whatsoever would have been equally as shocking, right?

That's non-sense. First of all, by the very nature of the revelations, a retcon would be required. Second, the only character that fits the mold of knowing Xavier since he was in college, being connected to Magneto and already established as a part of important moments of the X-Men is Moira. It's either her or a brand new character. And then every single person whining about Moira would be whining about Hickman making his new pet character as important as Xavier and Magneto, and saying he should have used Moira instead

Literally no one would have said it should have been Moira because they don't want Moira to be a mutant.

And again, Amelia Vought was right there.

I definitely said what I said and am very serious. HOX #2 is one of the most genius issue of X-men of the past decade. A lot of thought went into that so I can’t ever claim that was lazy. The stuff done there to recontextualize her was genius. She has since been destroyed but simply making her a mutant didn’t do that

Yeah, it did. Literally everything about her was destroyed by making her a mutant. Her being a human ally was essential to her character, and destroying that destroys her character.