I miss the old Moira

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm pretty sure the Gwen Stacy illegitimate children getting revealed to be clones was actually done to undo the deeply problematic Sins Past.

Yeah, which itself rose heckles because of what it 'did' to Gwen.

[Agent Z]

Just because people didn't make a big fuss over Moira's death, doesn't mean they didn't miss or that she wasn't important. The proponents of this retcon seem to think the only options are either raging about Moira not coming back to life or being apathetic to her.

[Agent Z]

Madelyne is a very different case from anyone else, in that she was a character whose entire conception was extremely misguided in the first place- not that she couldn't exist, with pretty much the same personality, but from the moment Claremont made her a doppelganger of Jean Grey she was done for. No healthy relationship has ever begun with "I just met this girl who looks exactly like my dead girlfriend and now we're getting married".

Since when are the X-Men known for healthy relationships?

I'll continue to say until he proves me otherwise that Claremont say Vertigo and misunderstood it utterly and completely, and the fact he still can't let go of the whole non-sense after nearly 40 decades doesn't speak too well of him. Makes him look like, well, Scottie from Vertigo.

That's pretty rich when you consider the only reason Jean was brought back was because people wouldn't let go of her either.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I would also add that this new mini only makes things worse.

Treating Moira as being hunted by Mystique as some sort of karmic payback is more disgusting than it should be, given that we're talking about two fictional characters.

Moira, prior to this, was a kind and empathetic person who fought for mutants simply because it was the right thing.

Now, she's a race traitor. And the person set to deliver her 'punishment' is Mystique.

Mystique, who's sold out mutants to the government (Freedom Force), threw her own son off a cliff, attempted genocide (the arc where original Moira died) and that's just the tip of the iceberg. For a culture that's put such an emphasize on mutant identity, it's odd that no concern is being given to the fact that she robbed another mutant of their powers (Moira's daughter, for irony in this discussion).

Moira, one of the strongest human supporters, is now a race traitor. Being hunted by one of the worst, most opportunistic mutants there is who has the narrative on her side.

So yeah, plenty of room for annoyance.

[LordUltimus]

Actually, did NuMoira come across as a little off in the voice department compared to previously? Hickman wrote her as brusque and uncompromising, here she's saying "I'm sorry" to the guy she's knocked out and helping little old ladies to their feet. Is Percy trying to make her sympathetic? Because that ship has sailed at this point.

[Writerblog]

I would also add that this new mini only makes things worse.

Treating Moira as being hunted by Mystique as some sort of karmic payback is more disgusting than it should be, given that we're talking about two fictional characters.

Moira, prior to this, was a kind and empathetic person who fought for mutants simply because it was the right thing.

Now, she's a race traitor. And the person set to deliver her 'punishment' is Mystique.

Mystique, who's sold out mutants to the government (Freedom Force), threw her own son off a cliff, attempted genocide (the arc where original Moira died) and that's just the tip of the iceberg. For a culture that's put such an emphasize on mutant identity, it's odd that no concern is being given to the fact that she robbed another mutant of their powers (Moira's daughter, for irony in this discussion).

Moira, one of the strongest human supporters, is now a race traitor. Being hunted by one of the worst, most opportunistic mutants there is who has the narrative on her side.

So yeah, plenty of room for annoyance.

Nothing makes sense to me. Mystique betrayed mutants many times, now they are trying to make her the biggest mutant defender EVER lived LOL
There is zero reason to kill Moira, if wasn't for her Krakoa would never exist. So what is the point but force some drama
The retcon definately did Moira dirty

Actually, did NuMoira come across as a little off in the voice department compared to previously? Hickman wrote her as brusque and uncompromising, here she's saying "I'm sorry" to the guy she's knocked out and helping little old ladies to their feet. Is Percy trying to make her sympathetic? Because that ship has sailed at this point.

She only sees the bigger picture now, I really doubt she cares about random people on the street

[Slicknickshady]

Someone needs to link this thread to claremont on Instagram. I just commented on his recent post. Told him to please fix Moira. Bug i mentioned Marvel likely wouldn’t let him retcon this away.

[LordUltimus]

Someone needs to link this thread to claremont on Instagram. I just commented on his recent post. Told him to please fix Moira. Bug i mentioned Marvel likely wouldn’t let him retcon this away.

Just posted it.

[AdamFTF]

Just because people didn't make a big fuss over Moira's death, doesn't mean they didn't miss or that she wasn't important. The proponents of this retcon seem to think the only options are either raging about Moira not coming back to life or being apathetic to her.

Well, first let's not ignore that for a long time, even after superheroes started coming back from the great beyond, that most people accepted that regular, non-powered supporting characters don't get resurrections. Superheroes are fantastical. They can come back. Supporting characters are regular folks and they don't. Gwen Stacy didn't come back. Jean DeWolf didn't come back. And it's why it was really weird when Aunt May came back. And there really wasn't much you could do but begrudgingly accept it.

And while people haven't been causing a fuss over Moira specifically, they have brought up something that her death was a symptom of: The X-Men don't have any human friends anymore. Over time, the human supporting cast members have kind of fallen away (with the occasionally lame duck explanation like "Stevie Hunter's in Congress now") and more and more we've seen humans who are openly hostile to mutants. The classic God Loves, Man Kills showed a humanity that was split on "The Mutant Question" and who had opinions that fell across a range. Now, it's just that, unless they're another Marvel superhero, humans hate mutants and mutants just have to deal with it. I mean, occasionally they'll introduce a new character like Dr. Kavita Rao who might have the possibility of being sympathetic, but they're few and far between.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, first let's not ignore that for a long time, even after superheroes started coming back from the great beyond, that most people accepted that regular, non-powered supporting characters don't get resurrections. Superheroes are fantastical. They can come back. Supporting characters are regular folks and they don't. Gwen Stacy didn't come back. Jean DeWolf didn't come back. And it's why it was really weird when Aunt May came back. And there really wasn't much you could do but begrudgingly accept it.

And while people haven't been causing a fuss over Moira specifically, they have brought up something that her death was a symptom of: The X-Men don't have any human friends anymore. Over time, the human supporting cast members have kind of fallen away (with the occasionally lame duck explanation like "Stevie Hunter's in Congress now") and more and more we've seen humans who are openly hostile to mutants. The classic God Loves, Man Kills showed a humanity that was split on "The Mutant Question" and who had opinions that fell across a range. Now, it's just that, unless they're another Marvel superhero, humans hate mutants and mutants just have to deal with it. I mean, occasionally they'll introduce a new character like Dr. Kavita Rao who might have the possibility of being sympathetic, but they're few and far between.

I'd add to this that it seems like supporting casts in comics have been cut to the bone, unless you're Spider-Man.

Heroes only hang out with heroes, it seems

[Malachi]

I'd add to this that it seems like supporting casts in comics have been cut to the bone, unless you're Spider-Man.

Heroes only hang out with heroes, it seems

Yes it becomes a problem when a comic looks inward like that. It risks tying itself up in a knot that might be hard to untangle.

Before there where human girlfriends (and now we have Kyle, happily he hasn't been killed for cheap drama yet). Then the cast grew and instead we had already established characters hooking up. It saves space and readers are already invested in both characters before the relationship. Long running tv shows risk this too. What often saves them is that their shows don't run nearly as long as the X-men has by now. Friends paired up 4 original characters and might have tied all 6 up but it instead took the path less travelled.

So we are are left with a cast that starts to only interact with other characters. Like in Tv-shows where it seems that their only friends are the other characters when they have parties and celebrate different occasions. It limits itself and the only way out is hard work. Still when we want something to happen in a comic and the X-office have the choice to use an already established mutant or a new human character then we of course wonder why the mutant isn't being used. Especially if that mutant is one of those that often gets relegated to wallpaper. As an example my favorite x-man Gambit isn't being used much in the Krakoa era. If there is a plot in a comic where something is to be stolen and they introduce a new character for that theft I would get pretty irritated at why they aren't using Gambit. And the list goes on for the hundred of mutants with different roles. Why not use that character that is someones favorite and make hem happy?

So while we need more humans to appear and give a more multi faceted picuture of the problem we also have several mutants that need to appear. Add then that we have, probably, to many ongoings as it is.

[WallStreeter]

Up until 89s, there just a few X-Men at a time. But then spin off books for launch and spin offs like New Mutants, Generation X, and X-Force created a lot of new mutants. Then the original 5 X-Men rejoined. So because they had so many mutant characters the human supporting characters became a lot less relevant. As for Claremont fixing Moira, he killed her off. I doubt he cares. Claremont killed off Jean’s human family too. He had Rachel deal with the trauma.

Human supporting characters only work with Spider Man were he can rescue the damsel in distress. But in general, it’s dangerous for people with no powers to be around people with powers. The regular human would be there just to be rescued regardless of gender and that sucks.

So yes, heroes hang out with other heroes.

[Zelena]

As for Claremont fixing Moira, he killed her off. I doubt he cares. Claremont killed off Jean’s human family too. He had Rachel deal with the trauma.

Hickman messing up with his work? Rewriting X-men’s credo of fraternity and inclusion? I think he takes it philosophically after all these years of knowing the industry, but it doesn’t mean he is pleased.

Human supporting characters only work with Spider Man were he can rescue the damsel in distress. But in general, it’s dangerous for people with no powers to be around people with powers. The regular human would be there just to be rescued regardless of gender and that sucks.

It’s the subject of many stories, though… It’s interesting to see someone with a lot of powers pondering about what it means…

[LordUltimus]

Did we ever hear about how Claremont feels about Hickman's run? It seems like the kind of thing someone in an interview would have asked him.

[LordUltimus]

Goddammit, I knew they were going to make Moira go Sentinel.