I miss the old Moira

[superjosh]

What? Psylocke is completely different! She wasn't retconned to be an Asian Ninja all along, she was literally brainswapped with an Asian Ninja!

It's just an example of change first then development. I didn't say they were at all similar.

[LordUltimus]

Moira being a mutant is not more of a retcon than Moira existing and being Xavier's right hand woman despite the fact neither Xavier nor the X-men met, mentioned or talked about her for 60+ issues. Or Xavier and Magneto being buddies and we only discover this after 20 years.

Hence the point about introducing a new character would have been better.

It's just an example of change first then development. I didn't say they were at all similar.

But... if they weren't at all similar... how can you compare them?

[Alan2099]

Moira being a mutant is not more of a retcon than Moira existing and being Xavier's right hand woman despite the fact neither Xavier nor the X-men met, mentioned or talked about her for 60+ issues. Or Xavier and Magneto being buddies and we only discover this after 20 years.

It's a pretty big difference.

Nobody ever came out and said "Moira has never met Xavier in her life and certainly isn't his right hand man."
On the other hand, we've had many MANY comics that specifically remover around the fact that she isn't a mutant.


They straight up told us that the comics where had read, the character interactions , and even the thought of the characters were straight up lies.
They friggin' Armin Tamzarianed her.

[superjosh]

But... if they weren't at all similar... how can you compare them?

I was responding to a person discussing development and how it's done in storytelling. I just used Psylocke's development as an example of STORYTELLING. I'm not comparing the two characters. It was a comment on STORYTELLING TECHNIQUE. Let's move on please!

[LordUltimus]

Bottomline: the fact is you can take Hickman's Moira, change her name, and you would lose literally nothing by making her a completely different character with a different name.

[Omega Alpha]

It's a pretty big difference.

Nobody ever came out and said "Moira has never met Xavier in her life and certainly isn't his right hand man."
On the other hand, we've had many MANY comics that specifically remover around the fact that she isn't a mutant.

They straight up told us that the comics where had read, the character interactions , and even the thought of the characters were straight up lies.
They friggin' Armin Tamzarianed her.

Except Hickman provided a clear explanation as to why she had a reason and was able to pass as a human, and the only people that knew otherwise were Xavier and Magneto, who had a reason to keep the pretense. Also, Xavier and Magneto even knowing each other, let alone being close friends, is a much bigger retcon in terms of altering character interactions and motivations. But there's childhood nostalgia from the days before, so people don't complain.

[superjosh]

It's a pretty big difference.

It's a big difference, but it doesn't mean that it's inherently unacceptable. All retcons require the suspension of disbelief and I guess it comes down to what one is willing to accept.

When HoX #2 came out, to me it was the most exciting thing that has ever happened with Moira's character and I loved it. It's lost some of it's intention and focus since then, but at the time it was game-changing, IMO.

[superjosh]

Bottomline: the fact is you can take Hickman's Moira, change her name, and you would lose literally nothing by making her a completely different character with a different name.

We would lose people caring this much lol.

But to be serious, it had to be Moira. She was built into the fiber (a retcon in and of itself) of Xavier's whole X-Men world. For me, it was fun to see it woven into the X-Men's history. It doesn't all fit and no retcon ever does, but fun and exciting nonetheless to me.

[Omega Alpha]

Bottomline: the fact is you can take Hickman's Moira, change her name, and you would lose literally nothing by making her a completely different character with a different name.

You're wrong and.you know this. Her backstory with Xavier, Magneto, Mystique and the X-men are the reason Moira is only character that could fill that role

[Omega Alpha]

We would lose people caring this much lol.

But to be serious, it had to be Moira. She was built into the fiber (a retcon in and of itself) of Xavier's whole X-Men world. For me, it was fun to see it woven into the X-Men's history. It doesn't all fit and no retcon ever does, but fun and exciting nonetheless to me.

Once again, I'll point out.to the retcon of Xavier and Magneto beinf buddies, which is the single most relevant one in the history of the franchise (of Marvel or even of comics, maybe), also came out of nowhere, and I don't see complaints.

[superjosh]

Once again, I'll point out.to the retcon of Xavier and Magneto beinf buddies, which is the single most relevant one in the history of the franchise (of Marvel or even of comics, maybe), also came out of nowhere, and I don't see complaints.

I... didn't disagree with you?

[Ambaryerno]

It doesn't have to happen in that order as long as the development happens somewhere down the line, and it surely did.

Take Ninja Psylocke, for example. She was turned into Asian Ninja first, then developed (and then ret-conned, but that's beside the point).

That is a MASSIVE false-equivalency. Psylocke was turned into an Asian Ninja through the in-story actions of other characters. She wasn't just retconned into having ALWAYS been an Asian Ninja.

[Ambaryerno]

I was responding to a person discussing development and how it's done in storytelling. I just used Psylocke's development as an example of STORYTELLING. I'm not comparing the two characters. It was a comment on STORYTELLING TECHNIQUE. Let's move on please!

That's a BS load of straws. My comment still holds true even for Psylocke.

The bodyswap was just superficial. It was the EXPERIENCE of having been changed and brainwashed, and how she reacted in the aftermath, that caused the actual change in who Betsy was as a character.

[superjosh]

Never mind I'm just going to move on.

[Metal Sphere]

Honestly on top of all the other complaints, I'd like to add that when some are turned off by how the Krakoan culture is, systematically dismantling any X-men human allies so that it appears all humanity is unified in hatred of all mutants is...a choice.

This puts words to a sentiment I've felt for a long time in the Krakoan era. They pretty much have no human close human allies like Moira, and Pumpkin King's comparison of her and Maddy is pretty apt. They're unintentionally stating that being an human ally to mutants is either exceedingly rare OR comes at the cost of utterly destroying you as a character. It's in the strong interpersonal connections with the mundane folks around them that really made some of X-Men's best scenes.