I miss the old Moira

[Zelena]

I suppose that's the discord of the real world showing up in comics. People are more politically divided than in the last two/three decades. Conservative and liberal voters appear to be at constant war with each other. Nobody bothers to be kind to each other, let alone civil. I guess I am just tired of it and would like to see some hope, even if it is in the comics.

I feel this way too: old utopias of fraternity that transcend race and political boundaries seem to disappear from fiction like from reality. With fewer protests than I would think…
We had a Claremont. Now we have an Hickman: more a loss than a gain.

[Thundershot]

I miss her accent… “ach, I dinnae ken!”

[Nazrel]

If a character has to be written OOC to make a story work, the quality of that story is SERIOUSLY suspect to begin with.

Certainly kills my suspension of disbelief, and capacity to engage with, let lone enjoy one.

[superjosh]

That's like saying Cyclops having secretly decided to kill all the humans all along and was lying about loving his friends and family and Xavier's Dream is still Cyclops as long as he's sufficiently driven while doing it. Besides, I don't see Moira's defining trait being "driven to protect mutantkind at all costs", I saw her compassion and empathy as her defining traits.

No, not the same at all. You’re still looking at it in a very black and white way. Moira X still thinks she’s doing what’s right for mutantkind. Moira doing unethical things because she thinks it’s for the best actually tracks. She did it to her son. She did it with Magneto.

[superjosh]

I miss her accent… “ach, I dinnae ken!”

Lol I think they’ve for the most part stopped doing that for every “accent” and good riddance. Like the way they’d spell Rogue’s dialogue differently… as if her American English was not equivalent.

[superjosh]

I am glad people are finally saying this. I have disliked this change ever since HOX2. I had really hoped that at the end of the Krakoan storyline, Moira would die, reset the universe and wipe her memory, restoring her true self in a new timeline. It appears this will not happen.

I have always loved Moira as a character. She had a great personality - stubborn, sometimes grumpy, yet always very kind. She became a mother figure to Rahne, a girl with more baggage than Stansted Airport, and helped her become a semi-functioning woman. Hell, she was the mother of the X-Men. She did everything in her power to help the Mutants, sometimes compromising her morals and even contracting the Legacy Virus as a result of her dedication. It is a shame she became nothing, but a plot point.

To be completely honest, whilst I only began reading the comics in 2007, having read back issues, X-Men have felt wrong ever since 2001's New X-Men. Whilst there have been runs I enjoyed (including Morrison's own run), the overall X-Men story has not felt right since. Whilst going public and becoming a superhero high school were big reasons why the X-Men have lost their appeal for me, the loss of Moira around the same time was also a huge factor. The dream of peaceful coexistence was built on friendships the X-Men had with their human allies, including Carol Danvers, the mutants' parents (where are they, honestly?), Madelyne Pryor, Stevie, etc. That is all but gone now. The X-Men are completely isolated from the rest of humanity. They can barely be considered human anymore.

I suppose that's the discord of the real world showing up in comics. People are more politically divided than in the last two/three decades. Conservative and liberal voters appear to be at constant war with each other. Nobody bothers to be kind to each other, let alone civil. I guess I am just tired of it and would like to see some hope, even if it is in the comics.

I am sorry for this emotional ramble. I do not often log in to comment anymore, but I have felt this very heavily and needed to get off my chest. Sorrow for the world has become a close friend.

Thanks for sharing! I’m sorry this (and other) eras haven’t been your thing. Have you read up all the way starting from 1963? I think there’s so much that you can probably still enjoy and cherish. I personally love the X-Men during the Outback era and that seems to be a favorite amongst fans. Which is funny because I remember some X-writer a long time ago saying it was the worst and the most un-X-Men they’ve ever been!

I just don't see her personality being that different. I'll quote Superjosh again here:

It's a version of Moira that pretty much breaks bad or comes very close to it, but it's still Moira.

Thanks! As I’ve said, what’s done is done and it’s not going back. I get that some don’t like it, but I’m still enjoying her character and IMO it isn’t a character assassination… a phrase I’d like to never hear again on this board!

[Omega Alpha]

No, not the same at all. You’re still looking at it in a very black and white way. Moira X still thinks she’s doing what’s right for mutantkind. Moira doing unethical things because she thinks it’s for the best actually tracks. She did it to her son. She did it with Magneto.

Plus, Cyclops has been on panel constantly for nearly 60 years, and the character first appeared as a teenager. Moira is pretty much the opposite- someone that has been off panel or dead more often than not, started as an adult old enough to have a teenage son, and pretty clearly knew more she let on.

[superjosh]

Plus, Cyclops has been on panel constantly for nearly 60 years, and the character first appeared as a teenager. Moira is pretty much the opposite- someone that has been off panel or dead more often than not, started as an adult old enough to have a teenage son, and pretty clearly knew more she let on.

Yeah to make a comparable argument, it would have to be something like, the character of Cyclops first becomes a secondary character, is then killed off, then decades later is brought back with a beefed up origin, and finally has a new extreme mission… and that doesn’t mean he suddenly hates all his friends and family and never agreed with Xavier’s dream. Just that his motivations have been rewritten and he’s playing for keeps! (A favorite Claremont phrase lol!)

[superjosh]

I feel this way too: old utopias of fraternity that transcend race and political boundaries seem to disappear from fiction like from reality. With fewer protests than I would think…
We had a Claremont. Now we have an Hickman: more a loss than a gain.

They never existed in modern reality, to be perfectly fair. Old timely storytelling for sure had a more earnest hopeful Kumbaya aspect, but it was also a fantasy that just doesn’t translate anymore. It’s like lying to yourself.

We live in a world where one cannot be that naive anymore. You’ll get trampled all over… or be the one trampling and not realize it.

[Malachi]

I get that some don’t like it, but I’m still enjoying her character and IMO it isn’t a character assassination… a phrase I’d like to never hear again on this board!

Character assination can get thrown around and that diminishes it's value. It's a shame since we need it.

On Moira I'm not sure if it's correctly used. We know so little. So far one could argue that perhaps her core characteristics are intact. Bent but not broken. But with seemingly all previous relationships cast in doubt or just eliminated it makes more sense to view her as an AU Moira that has replaced our. That is until future writers eloborate on what she has or hasn't done in this universe and what those relationships meant to her. Like Rahne and Sean.

[Frontier]

They never existed in modern reality, to be perfectly fair. Old timely storytelling for sure had a more earnest hopeful Kumbaya aspect, but it was also a fantasy that just doesn’t translate anymore. It’s like lying to yourself.

We live in a world where one cannot be that naive anymore. You’ll get trampled all over… or be the one trampling and not realize it.

Well, I think in general Superhero fiction still leans into that level of impossible idealism, no matter how hopeless it might seem.

[gerlof101]

There might be a rather simple IC reason why this current Moira is suddenly a mutant and having a very different behaviour than the human Moira we knew of old.

This Moira X is not the same person as the Moira we knew from Muir island.

Consider ; those stories of the old Moira were stories from the previous incarnation of the Marvel multiverse. A few years ago that Multiverse was completely (save a few charakters that cheated) destroyed and reduced to Doom's warworld. It was only after Secret Wars that the current incarnation of the Marvel multiverse was put together again by Franklin Richards and the Future Foundation. Now we might look at the current 616-reality as being the same as the old 616 one, but we already know there have been a few changes, intentional or not. It might be that this current Moira is one of those small unintentional changes that slipped in. It, of course, also means that in the few years this current, new 616-reality exists it has allready gone through at least 10 timeline reboots .

In other words ; Marvel allowed current writers and editors to not take continuity from pre-'Secret Wars' marvel stories all to seriously and to 'suprise' us.

[Zelena]

They never existed in modern reality, to be perfectly fair. Old timely storytelling for sure had a more earnest hopeful Kumbaya aspect, but it was also a fantasy that just doesn’t translate anymore. It’s like lying to yourself.

We live in a world where one cannot be that naive anymore. You’ll get trampled all over… or be the one trampling and not realize it.

Hope doesn’t mean being naive. But it helps to live…

[Saithor]

Just a quick comment, for people saying that the idealistic nature of the old stories were “Extremely unrealistic and no longer fit in this world”, I’d like to point out that in many ways the current vision at Marvel is just as unrealistic just in the opposite direction.

[Grunty]

I feel this way too: old utopias of fraternity that transcend race and political boundaries seem to disappear from fiction like from reality. With fewer protests than I would think…
We had a Claremont. Now we have an Hickman: more a loss than a gain.

I don't think they really disappear from fiction as much as they become less covered by mass/new media, likewise when they are done the modern writers seem to feel the need to present them "warts and all", which makes them less on the nose as the classic examples did.

However contrary to what seems to be pushed as trend, i notice that the mass appeal of idealistic and heroic stories and characters still seem to go strong regardless of what happens to classic franchises by modern writers or people in charge who have a weird obsession with deconstructing or dismantling such more "simple" perspectives and presentation.

It's just that the people who enjoy these stories don't flock to social media or internet forums to proclaim their love for it (especialy if that gets answered by cynism and ridicule).

This creates this weird divide between the modern creators who think their stories need to be "dark", "mature" and "cynic" , only to complain that their product continues to fail to catch on compared to the "classic" stories, blaming people for "not getting it" or some demonized "enemy" who is against them and the majority of silent consumers who seemingly just want to enjoy worlds and characters who explicitly are better than reality and follow moral and ideals which are so rare to maintain in reality.

Sure dark, mature and cynic stories have their appeal and fans too (oh how lame the world would be if everything is the same), but most people who want those will seek them out, rather than wanting to see something that is explicitly not meant to be that turned into it.
Those who want that for some reason tend to be the minority and switching an established idealistic product to a dark and cynic "new version" tends to fail or underperform compared to the original because of that.

For example:
In the current manga/anime industry there aren't many "classic" magical girl (comparable in popularity and appeal to super hero works) stories made anymore. Instead the new hot thing are seemingly "dark magical girl" stories which put evil twists on the fantasy of young woman empowered with magic fighting demons and monsters.
Some might see that as sign that the consumers only want these kind of stories anymore, but looking at the overall trend the "classics" don't really seem to lose in popularity or even in how much they are consumed by younger generations.
Meanwhile with an increasing oversaturation of "dark magical girl" stories, it's noticable that many newer versions also have difficulties gaining enough consumers to be sustainable anymore.

There are many who like Sailor Moon and many who like Puella Magi Madoka Magika (and likely many who like both), but if the former would be turned to be more like the later it would have far less success than either, because people are liking it specifically because it isn't like the later.

Infact it seems even of the dark takes, the most successfull and still remembered ones are those which still showcase an internal or hidden idealism and provide hope in all the mess they showcase. While those who just go with total cynism and bleakness fail to catch on or remain popular once their hype is over (if they ever developed any).

So it appears to me that the decline of new "classic" Magical Girl stories and the rise of "dark" ones was more thanks to an oversaturation and coverage of the former and the the "newness" of the later, than because the later is overall more appealing to the newer audiences.

And that's before we factor in the potential appeal of "classic" MG stories via some sort of renaissances, since these kinds of development seems to be cyclic.

However some publishers will likely still push for dark takes in years to come because they saw the temporary hype and success of it and now still belief ONLY dark takes will sell. (until some new classic take becomes a smash hit and they chase it instead).

The same can be said about super heros, we have creators and/or publishers who think they need to be dark, realistic and unidealistic to reflect reality, because of a trend or personal opinion. Infact there sometimes seems to be some sort of atmosphere where creators are seen as less "in" and desired by people in charge when they belief in idealism and heroism in fiction, since it's deemed "childish" (nevermind most adult never really lose their inner child, they just develop layers over it).
But the overall market still showcases that when a work became popular with unrealistic idealism and heroism at it's core, it still sells the most when it follows this nature, even in modern day, regardless of how dark or bleak the real world is percieved. Infact it's this contrast to reality which makes it popular to beginn with.

Just how dark and realistic stories are appealing to others or even the same consumers for being that.

Look no further than athurian knight stories (basicly one of the first shared universe works, with stories produced in england, france and germany), in which larger than life heroic figures fought fantastic beasts and evil knights in fantastic versions of britian, which were consumed in times of actual wars, famine and plagues. Sure the moral standards in them can be somewhat questioned in parts nowdays, but for their time they tended to be overly idealistic and yet people loved them, regardless of how unrealistic they were.

And we see this with the billion dollar success of the MCU, which is still clearly positioned in the idealistic and heroic side of super heros and apperently beloved exactly because of this, while the current super hero comics which have the tendency to barely sell more than 20k issues at average (though i admit that's also because it has become highly difficult to consume/purchase these work, especialy at an acceptable price) flunder and barely make any impact on pop culture themself anymore.

Just a quick comment, for people saying that the idealistic nature of the old stories were “Extremely unrealistic and no longer fit in this world”, I’d like to point out that in many ways the current vision at Marvel is just as unrealistic just in the opposite direction.

Indeed. It seems weird to seek realism and perfect representation of reality in works labeled "super heros". It's a product for escapism, that's it entire appeal. Of course that doesn't exclude it from being allowed to adress real world situations or issues, but it's main appeal is seeing larger than life, more idealistic than anyone could really be, characters handling or overcomming them, while fighting cartoonishly evil and over the top bad people.