I miss the old Moira

[Zelena]

I don't think they really disappear from fiction as much as they become less covered by mass/new media, likewise when they are done the modern writers seem to feel the need to present them "warts and all", which makes them less on the nose as the classic examples did.

However contrary to what seems to be pushed as trend, i notice that the mass appeal of idealistic and heroic stories and characters still seem to go strong regardless of what happens to classic franchises by modern writers or people in charge who have a weird obsession with deconstructing or dismantling such more "simple" perspectives and presentation.

You’re right: how many Spider-man movies that are the retelling of the same old story featuring the most selfless of all heroes…

For their fiction, most people want something that lift them up…

[LordUltimus]

No, not the same at all. You’re still looking at it in a very black and white way. Moira X still thinks she’s doing what’s right for mutantkind. Moira doing unethical things because she thinks it’s for the best actually tracks. She did it to her son. She did it with Magneto.

I'm not against her doing morally ambiguous things, I'm against making doing morally ambiguous things into her entire character. THAT'S what's black and white about this.

[LordUltimus]

Yeah to make a comparable argument, it would have to be something like, the character of Cyclops first becomes a secondary character, is then killed off, then decades later is brought back with a beefed up origin, and finally has a new extreme mission… and that doesn’t mean he suddenly hates all his friends and family and never agreed with Xavier’s dream. Just that his motivations have been rewritten and he’s playing for keeps! (A favorite Claremont phrase lol!)

That's literally happened with Moira. Now it suddenly turns into she never believed in Xaviers dream. What are you talking about?

[LordUltimus]

Plus, Cyclops has been on panel constantly for nearly 60 years, and the character first appeared as a teenager. Moira is pretty much the opposite- someone that has been off panel or dead more often than not, started as an adult old enough to have a teenage son, and pretty clearly knew more she let on.

What does the characters age have to do with anything?

Besides, we saw people read her mind before. We saw into her mind ourselves as readers. We know how she thought, and it wasn't like this. She wasn't mysterious in the slightest.

[LordUltimus]

They never existed in modern reality, to be perfectly fair. Old timely storytelling for sure had a more earnest hopeful Kumbaya aspect, but it was also a fantasy that just doesn’t translate anymore. It’s like lying to yourself.

We live in a world where one cannot be that naive anymore. You’ll get trampled all over… or be the one trampling and not realize it.

...Isn't that the entire point of the Hickman run? To stop being so negative and live in hope?

[LordUltimus]

There might be a rather simple IC reason why this current Moira is suddenly a mutant and having a very different behaviour than the human Moira we knew of old.

This Moira X is not the same person as the Moira we knew from Muir island.

Consider ; those stories of the old Moira were stories from the previous incarnation of the Marvel multiverse. A few years ago that Multiverse was completely (save a few charakters that cheated) destroyed and reduced to Doom's warworld. It was only after Secret Wars that the current incarnation of the Marvel multiverse was put together again by Franklin Richards and the Future Foundation. Now we might look at the current 616-reality as being the same as the old 616 one, but we already know there have been a few changes, intentional or not. It might be that this current Moira is one of those small unintentional changes that slipped in. It, of course, also means that in the few years this current, new 616-reality exists it has allready gone through at least 10 timeline reboots .

In other words ; Marvel allowed current writers and editors to not take continuity from pre-'Secret Wars' marvel stories all to seriously and to 'suprise' us.

Then they should have the decency to tell us this.

[The Cool Thatguy]

...Isn't that the entire point of the Hickman run? To stop being so negative and live in hope?

Also Hickman run

No humans can be trusted and the longest supporting human cast member was a mutant! Who hates mutants!

[superjosh]

...Isn't that the entire point of the Hickman run? To stop being so negative and live in hope?

That's not at all how I've looked at this era. To me, the Hickman era (and I've said this before so sorry if it's redundant) is all about what would happen if you actually achieved your dreams. It's kind of like the classic The Lottery short story. There's always a catch and it's never as good as you thought it would be.

There is a hopeful side to balance things, but there's the whole gamut of emotions and ups and downs and high stakes and consequences.

[superjosh]

Also Hickman run

No humans can be trusted and the longest supporting human cast member was a mutant! Who hates mutants!

I don't get why people think that that's what they're trying to say. Yes, they're depicting mutants getting in their heads about superiority and all that, but they're not showing it like we're supposed to be approving of all of it. They're trying to show what would happen in this particular scenario and a lot of if makes sense. Of course there's going to be a big human effort to fight it and sometimes it's dirty and neither side will look good, but that's what happens.

And did Moira say she hates mutants? In her twisted and traumatized mind, she thinks she's doing what's best for them. A trait that she's always had!

[cam18]

I always liked Moria from the beginning......while I do like how prominent she has become and was looking forward to the Moria X book that will probably never come out.....not a huge fan of this villian turn...especially with characters like Mystique,Destiny,Emma Frost and others running around

[Omega Alpha]

I don't get why people think that that's what they're trying to say. Yes, they're depicting mutants getting in their heads about superiority and all that, but they're not showing it like we're supposed to be approving of all of it. They're trying to show what would happen in this particular scenario and a lot of if makes sense. Of course there's going to be a big human effort to fight it and sometimes it's dirty and neither side will look good, but that's what happens.

And did Moira say she hates mutants? In her twisted and traumatized mind, she thinks she's doing what's best for them. A trait that she's always had!

Yep, plus the people who are more in the whole mutant superiority deal are the ones that already had those tendencies anyway, with maybe a few exceptions.

Also, you know, in real life there's plenty of Americans that think of their country as the best in the world, and they don't even have free healthcare, let alone superpowers...

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't get why people think that that's what they're trying to say. Yes, they're depicting mutants getting in their heads about superiority and all that, but they're not showing it like we're supposed to be approving of all of it. They're trying to show what would happen in this particular scenario and a lot of if makes sense. Of course there's going to be a big human effort to fight it and sometimes it's dirty and neither side will look good, but that's what happens.

And did Moira say she hates mutants? In her twisted and traumatized mind, she thinks she's doing what's best for them. A trait that she's always had!

The entire franchise has pretty much left integration to the wayside, and it's gone unremarked by by everyone. We keep hearing 'mutant this' and 'mutant that'. The only people who take issue with what's happening are either super evil (Orchis) or super racist and evil (Hellfire Club).

If we're not supposed to be behind island mutant nation 100%, no non evil character has yet explained why.

And wiping out an ethnic group is pretty evil, regardless of intentions. And seems odd, given her adopted daughter and various lovers.

[RachelGrey]

The entire franchise has pretty much left integration to the wayside, and it's gone unremarked by by everyone. We keep hearing 'mutant this' and 'mutant that'. The only people who take issue with what's happening are either super evil (Orchis) or super racist and evil (Hellfire Club).

If we're not supposed to be behind island mutant nation 100%, no non evil character has yet explained why.

And wiping out an ethnic group is pretty evil, regardless of intentions. And seems odd, given her adopted daughter and various lovers.

I don't think the Hellfire Club is racist and evil. Sure Sebastian is a piece of work, but Emma is running everything with the purpose of protecting mutants no matter where they live. Emma even agreed with Kate to support the impoverished human communities in Madripoor and built schools and hospitals in the poorest areas of the city. She used her own money to do that. Emma and Kate were also the ones that convinced Magneto to let them use island M for human refugees that were rejected by every other democratic country. Then she used her money to help get the people on Island M set up, and they gave those refugees Krakoan flowers to build homes instantly.

For the Morlocks who didn't want to live on Krakoa, she bought them several homes in the same community so they could live in the United States still.

I have always felt that Emma is going along with Krakoa, but she is putting in place contingencies in case everything goes south and they have to evacuate the island. Emma uses her profits from Frost International and the Hellfire Corporation to support mutant and even human rights world wide. Emma certainly supports gay and transgender rights.

[HomoSuperior]

There is always an out. Forge’s neutralizer wasn’t capable of permanently stripping Storm’s powers. What happens when another writer decides Moira’s powers have returned; just like Storm’s?

[RachelGrey]

There is always an out. Forge’s neutralizer wasn’t capable of permanently stripping Storm’s powers. What happens when another writer decides Moira’s powers have returned; just like Storm’s?

Inferno 3.0 the rise of Moira X!