Selina Kyle: Catwoman 2022 Appreciation Thread

[TravelerInTheDark]

I still think the definitive modern take on Selina and Bruce as paramours is actually Paul Dini’s stuff around Batman RIP/INC; as much as King tried to make a definitive take on it, Dini’s take was the one that most felt like *two* characters with distinct voices and personalities, both capable of headlining a book with that personality, while King’s version crudely shaped Selina into an Idealized Love Interest first and foremost, with an already too-archetypal version of Bruce.

I love Dini's work with the two as well, but my issue with him was he made them so non-committal. At least King manned up an wrote a natural progression of their relationship. He just likes to muck things up with strange dialogue and incredibly off-kilter plot choices. I'll leave out Batman/Catwoman, because that book is empty lip service, with the rotten foundation of a terrible Selina characterization.

[Frontier]

I love Dini's work with the two as well, but my issue with him was he made them so non-committal. At least King manned up an wrote a natural progression of their relationship. He just likes to muck things up with strange dialogue and incredibly off-kilter plot choices. I'll leave out Batman/Catwoman, because that book is empty lip service, with the rotten foundation of a terrible Selina characterization.

Well, Dini did give us one of the first Post-Crisis on-panel love confessions between them on-panel at least...

[phonogram12]

Honestly, King was the first person since pre-CRISIS that's been able to convince me that they're even a viable couple. Most every other effort to me just seemed so forced.

[Frontier]

Honestly, King was the first person since pre-CRISIS that's been able to convince me that they're even a viable couple. Most every other effort to me just seemed so forced.

I mean, the whole Bat/Cat dynamic and execution felt kind of forced to me but I'm talking as someone who really soured on King's run by the midpoint. On some level I think King got it but on another level Bruce and Selina felt more like robots making out. Or like too consumed by each other at the expense of everything else (I know that's sometimes love, but still).

[phonogram12]

Or like too consumed by each other at the expense of everything else (I know that's sometimes love, but still).

This part I agree with. Prior to King, though, they really just seemed like actors who had no chemistry to me.

[Frontier]

This part I agree with. Prior to King, though, they really just seemed like actors who had no chemistry to me.

I've always felt they had their moments:

[TravelerInTheDark]

I've always been partial to this one. Another Brubaker page. It's difficult to overstate just how incredible that run was.

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[signalman112]

Charles Paris art from 1945.

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[John Venus]

I love Dini's work with the two as well, but my issue with him was he made them so non-committal. At least King manned up an wrote a natural progression of their relationship. He just likes to muck things up with strange dialogue and incredibly off-kilter plot choices. I'll leave out Batman/Catwoman, because that book is empty lip service, with the rotten foundation of a terrible Selina characterization.

My main issue with Dini is how often he would have Selina turned into a damsel in distress needing to be rescued. He clearly had a stronger feel for Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy than for Catwoman. Still, he was miles ahead of Tom King and he knows how Selina 'sounds' like at least. Brubaker/Cooke is still the whole package, the gold standard when it comes to Catwoman and the Bat/Cat relationship imo.

[TravelerInTheDark]

My main issue with Dini is how often he would have Selina turned into a damsel in distress needing to be rescued. He clearly had a stronger feel for Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy than for Catwoman. Still, he was miles ahead of Tom King and he knows how Selina 'sounds' like at least. Brubaker/Cooke is still the whole package, the gold standard when it comes to Catwoman and the Bat/Cat relationship imo.

It's such a lazy cliche way to endear a male character. I'm not saying it should NEVER happen, but it does make me roll my eyes a lot.

Like when Hush somehow managed to sneak up on her and take her out in a fight. Complete nonsense. Dini's earned a few mistakes though, he's done so much good work.

I think my "favorite" recent example was a few issues back in Howard's run, Selina walks right up like an idiot to a random mobster with who is carrying a shotgun. Surprise surprise, he blasts her, and needs Valmont to save her and take care of the bad guys for her. He of course also had to strip her in order to treat her.

[godisawesome]

Honestly, King was the first person since pre-CRISIS that's been able to convince me that they're even a viable couple. Most every other effort to me just seemed so forced.

I mean, the whole Bat/Cat dynamic and execution felt kind of forced to me but I'm talking as someone who really soured on King's run by the midpoint. On some level I think King got it but on another level Bruce and Selina felt more like robots making out. Or like too consumed by each other at the expense of everything else (I know that's sometimes love, but still).

I tend to think that Kings take was a “decaf” version of the more Pre-Crisis “soap opera” chemistry Batman had with just about any of his love interests, while the more conventional “modern” Batman and Catwoman romance tends more towards a bit of a “rom-com meets film noir” vibe, which Dini would right in a “caffeinated” way.

There was a very formulaic (though not bad) cliché for Batman’s romances in the Bronze Age, with a lot of quiet angst, yearning, and a bit of a dearth of humor - and I think that Bronze Age Catwoman got outshone at the time because you had Silver St. Cloud doing a “perfected” version of that formula as a “good girl” romantic interest while Nocturnal was basically the patron saint of gothic romance as a variation on that theme.

Then Post-Crisis came along, and gradually, in both the comics and other media, the contrast that could be served with a more “fun,” flirty and teasing Catwoman against a Batman trying to remain stoic became more prominent; by the mid 90’s, Comic!Catwoman was always cheekily hitting on Batman and Adrienne Barbeau was perfecting the “teasing ex-girlfriend” thing. Just compare Catwoman’s behavior in early Post-Crisis comics and BTAS to her sass and attitude in TNBAS and her first solo.

In that regard, King’s Catwoman and her relationship with Batman is a bit of a throwback… albeit one with highly surreal, “meta-friendly” dialogue that makes it feel less energetic.

[phonogram12]

I've always felt they had their moments:

See, the first one just reminds me of all those times that it seemed like all it was was mindless flirting. Like Selina was just having fun without any sort of emotional investment. Whenever she's depicted like that it just seems like she's just far too immature for any sort of relationship.

The second one, while I do agree that there is a bit of chemistry there, I always felt the way that Brubaker wrote them he depicted them as exes that we never really got to see as a couple, but whose relationship had been put to bed some time ago. Ed Brubaker's one of my favorite writers, btw.

I'm not familiar with the third image as much, but it still comes off as forced to me.

[Frontier]

My main issue with Dini is how often he would have Selina turned into a damsel in distress needing to be rescued. He clearly had a stronger feel for Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy than for Catwoman. Still, he was miles ahead of Tom King and he knows how Selina 'sounds' like at least. Brubaker/Cooke is still the whole package, the gold standard when it comes to Catwoman and the Bat/Cat relationship imo.

It's such a lazy cliche way to endear a male character. I'm not saying it should NEVER happen, but it does make me roll my eyes a lot.

Like when Hush somehow managed to sneak up on her and take her out in a fight. Complete nonsense. Dini's earned a few mistakes though, he's done so much good work.

I think my "favorite" recent example was a few issues back in Howard's run, Selina walks right up like an idiot to a random mobster with who is carrying a shotgun. Surprise surprise, he blasts her, and needs Valmont to save her and take care of the bad guys for her. He of course also had to strip her in order to treat her.

At least she got the "final hit" on Hush in Heart of Hush, which did more to hurt him than anything Bruce did.

I liked her being the "only sane woman" in the Gotham City Sirens although now it feels like the whole group has basically just become "Harley Quinn's Gal Pals."

See, the first one just reminds me of all those times that it seemed like all it was was mindless flirting. Like Selina was just having fun without any sort of emotional investment. Whenever she's depicted like that it just seems like she's just far too immature for any sort of relationship.

I mean, she's a naturally playful, teasing, person and the fact that she went through all this trouble just to basically have a "date" with Batman says a lot in my opinion. Like she deliberately commits a crime just so she can spend time with him in the way that's only...them.

The second one, while I do agree that there is a bit of chemistry there, I always felt the way that Brubaker wrote them he depicted them as exes that we never really got to see as a couple, but whose relationship had been put to bed some time ago. Ed Brubaker's one of my favorite writers, btw.

I don't think they came across as exes to me...I mean, there's definitely a lot of history and unresolved tension that I see here, but I feel like Brubaker wrote it to where they had this deep emotional connection and understanding of each other that they don't have with anyone else even if they're never able to really capitalize on it for various reasons.

I'm not familiar with the third image as much, but it still comes off as forced to me.

It helps if you read the whole issue because this is basically the culmination of a whole issue's worth of a date between the two of them.

[phonogram12]

I mean, she's a naturally playful, teasing, person and the fact that she went through all this trouble just to basically have a "date" with Batman says a lot in my opinion. Like she deliberately commits a crime just so she can spend time with him in the way that's only...them.

Yeah, just really never cared for this take. Reminds me too much of the Balent era, a run I absolutely abhorred.

I don't think they came across as exes to me...I mean, there's definitely a lot of history and unresolved tension that I see here, but I feel like Brubaker wrote it to where they had this deep emotional connection and understanding of each other that they don't have with anyone else even if they're never able to really capitalize on it for various reasons.

IDK, like I've said, while I do see the chemistry, it just kind of feels like they're over each other to me.

It helps if you read the whole issue because this is basically the culmination of a whole issue's worth of a date between the two of them.

Was this at the tail end of Brubaker's run? Honestly, I most concentrated on the first 25 issues more or less. I think I may vaguely remember this, though. Still doesn't feel natural to me.

[Frontier]

Yeah, just really never cared for this take. Reminds me too much of the Balent era, a run I absolutely abhorred.

I appreciated the Balent era for what it was. Like this really fun, heist, action-movie run with a kind of pure thrillseeking thief Catwoman. I think there's definitely some prime aspects of Selina that are demonstrated there.

IDK, like I've said, while I do see the chemistry, it just kind of feels like they're over each other to me.

To me it looks like they're really not over each other otherwise the moments would feel less powerful and intimate.

Was this at the tail end of Brubaker's run? Honestly, I most concentrated on the first 25 issues more or less. I think I may vaguely remember this, though. Still doesn't feel natural to me.

I think it definitely came later.

Why doesn't it feel natural?