Selina Kyle: Catwoman 2022 Appreciation Thread

[WebLurker]

I woke up to this tragic news. The last released Catwoman issue gave me a glimmer of hope for BatCat but this seems to be the nail in the coffin for now. A sad day, still months of waiting for it too.

Hasn't a defining trait of the relationship that it's on and off again, since it'll never work out in the main canon?

(Don't blame you, though; Spider-Man fan still sore over OMD and all that right here.)

[Matt Rat]

Hasn't a defining trait of the relationship that it's on and off again, since it'll never work out in the main canon?

The solicits could be lying. Williamson has already said DC do those things all the time now, and several comics have been released that didn't match their solicits.

I think Howard will just play Selina and Valmont for laughs.

The only reason Selina and Bruce aren't 'working out' is because Selina has a book of her own and they need to keep in interesting. If she didn't have one I think they would be together. It's the same presently with Dick and Babs. Taylor's allowed to make them work so well because Babs shares her current book with two other females and doesn't have a solo ongoing just yet.

[HsssH]

So BatCat fans should hope that Catwoman's ongoing gets cancelled..?

[TravelerInTheDark]

Hasn't a defining trait of the relationship that it's on and off again, since it'll never work out in the main canon?

(Don't blame you, though; Spider-Man fan still sore over OMD and all that right here.)

One of the biggest downfall of cape comics is boringly cyclical narratives propped up by lazy/uncreative writers and editors.

The current Batman/Catwoman saga was specifically built up at fever pitch over the course of the last 4 or so years of Batman comics as a climax to a relationship spanning the better part of a century. Then it is just basically all-of-a-sudden pushed under the rug with very little fanfare from DC creatives. And as much as it sucked, the worst part about the whole thing was how creatively soulless it felt. It was so obviously just some decision made by some nameless higher-up and the whole "kinda-break" felt weak from the outset and didn't accurately reflect the condition of the relationship at the time. Felt disrespectful to the characters and invested readers.

Howard's Catwoman is basically the epitome of that. The way she writes Selina, and the book as a whole, it is honestly disrespectful to all that had come before and almost like a slap in the face to everyone who had bought into the story and become invested. It doesn't feel like the same Selina who we got to see develop in the last half-decade or so. Just some cheap handwave call-backs every now and then.

It's a huge creative letdown for a lot of people. Also, in my opinion, Howard's writing is just straight up not enjoyable. Feels like more a self-insert fantasy of Howard's than anything else. Selina's voice is off. There is very little narrative weight or tension in the book. And the less said about Selina choosing this insanely cliche, annoying and unlikable Valmont character over Bruce, the better.

[Johnny]

The only purpose this issue will serve is to put a stop to the "wait and see" for BatCat but I wish they actually put some more thought into this whole thing. The worst part is you know Bruce will come off looking really bad in this issue when in fact he's yet to do anything wrong. He gave Selina her space like she previously wanted to, he rejected Talia's advances in Shadow War, while Selina just meets some other guy and suddenly is in a relationship with him, yet you know Bruce will be painted as the jealous ex. They will both come off looking bad and that's just because DC neither wants to commit to their relationship, nor give them a respectable breakup. Normally that would be "business as usual" I suppose, but after the past few years it would seem extra disrespectful.

[Frontier]

The only purpose this issue will serve is to put a stop to the "wait and see" for BatCat but I wish they actually put some more thought into this whole thing. The worst part is you know Bruce will come off looking really bad in this issue when in fact he's yet to do anything wrong. He gave Selina her space like she previously wanted to, he rejected Talia's advances in Shadow War, while Selina just meets some other guy and suddenly is in a relationship with him, yet you know Bruce will be painted as the jealous ex. They will both come off looking bad and that's just because DC neither wants to commit to their relationship, nor give them a respectable breakup. Normally that would be "business as usual" I suppose, but after the past few years it would seem extra disrespectful.

That and Howard really doesn't seem to be writing the male characters in this book well...

[Matt Rat]

That and Howard really doesn't seem to be writing the male characters in this book well...

It feels like she's auditioning for the Harley Quinn TV show

[godisawesome]

One of the biggest downfall of cape comics is boringly cyclical narratives propped up by lazy/uncreative writers and editors.

The current Batman/Catwoman saga was specifically built up at fever pitch over the course of the last 4 or so years of Batman comics as a climax to a relationship spanning the better part of a century. Then it is just basically all-of-a-sudden pushed under the rug with very little fanfare from DC creatives. And as much as it sucked, the worst part about the whole thing was how creatively soulless it felt. It was so obviously just some decision made by some nameless higher-up and the whole "kinda-break" felt weak from the outset and didn't accurately reflect the condition of the relationship at the time. Felt disrespectful to the characters and invested readers.

Howard's Catwoman is basically the epitome of that. The way she writes Selina, and the book as a whole, it is honestly disrespectful to all that had come before and almost like a slap in the face to everyone who had bought into the story and become invested. It doesn't feel like the same Selina who we got to see develop in the last half-decade or so. Just some cheap handwave call-backs every now and then.

It's a huge creative letdown for a lot of people. Also, in my opinion, Howard's writing is just straight up not enjoyable. Feels like more a self-insert fantasy of Howard's than anything else. Selina's voice is off. There is very little narrative weight or tension in the book. And the less said about Selina choosing this insanely cliche, annoying and unlikable Valmont character over Bruce, the better.

Yeah, I think the aggravating thing for someone like me was that after I cooled off on King, I was hoping we’d get to see someone like Paul Dini or another, more fun writer take the BatCat status quo and run with it for a while.

I will, however, say that I think there might be something to a deliberate attempt to make Selina kind for wander in-and-out of Gotham as Bruce’s de-facto wife, but instead of making it a true on-and-off again thing, it ends up being more like a thing where they yo-yo between various forms of estrangement and reconciliation, with humor and drama sewn into how the characters react to that.

Of course, a key to see thing like that would be to cut down on either of them cheating on the other just to fulfill some imagined “this escapist character must get laid constantly by new, forgettable faces that can go through a predictable stereotype of romantic stories as part of the status quo” thing.

Because asides from actual “shipping,” I think most Batman and Catwoman fans just aren’t nearly as engaged with the idea of either character as a vicarious stand-in for someone who has a constantly changing love life. There aren’t the returns that interchangeable archetype used to have in its heyday of the 80’s, when Bruce would date Silver, Selina, Vicki, Talia, and Nocturna all in the same decade; hell, Joe Quesada clearly expected to enjoy some of that type of audience engagement after One More Day, as did Dan Didio with the New 52 Superman, Flash, and Aquaman.

Gen-Xers, Millenials, and Zoomers just aren’t as attracted to revolving door romances as Boomers were. We’d all much rather see talented writers toy with an existing relationship.

[BatzvsJoke]

I’ve got 2 comic boxes full of the Rebirth Batman line, and a chunk of Catwoman’s line. I thought we’d finally get them together and as much as they’re pushing the new gen of heroes, we would get Helena Wayne finally canon. I like to keep hope that maybe the solicitations are playing coy as usual but I can definitely see Howard laughing to herself as she writes. The synopsis before this one says Valmont takes her on an ultra date/heist. I liked how they switched it up with us thinking they were sleeping together but then the next issue showed they weren’t. I appreciated that, I just hope they don’t actually ruin it.

[Robanker]

The solicits could be lying. Williamson has already said DC do those things all the time now, and several comics have been released that didn't match their solicits.

I think Howard will just play Selina and Valmont for laughs.

The only reason Selina and Bruce aren't 'working out' is because Selina has a book of her own and they need to keep in interesting. If she didn't have one I think they would be together. It's the same presently with Dick and Babs. Taylor's allowed to make them work so well because Babs shares her current book with two other females and doesn't have a solo ongoing just yet.

The Batman/Catwoman relationship is really popular. You mean to tell me fans of Catwoman wouldn't want to read about it because... why? All it would require is that every time she has to kiss someone, it's Bruce. Tall, dark and handsome Bruce Wayne, a relationship that has been part of her character for decades and is extremely popular. So much so she can't appear in outside media without them flirting or hooking up.

Seriously. What? That's like arguing Lois and Clark would divorce if she got an ongoing. If anything, there'd just be panels where she pretends to go out for a smoke and grab a superspeed smooch from her husband as he flies by with the lunch she forgot at home and then go back to Lois Lane shit. lol

[WebLurker]

One of the biggest downfall of cape comics is boringly cyclical narratives propped up by lazy/uncreative writers and editors.

The current Batman/Catwoman saga was specifically built up at fever pitch over the course of the last 4 or so years of Batman comics as a climax to a relationship spanning the better part of a century. Then it is just basically all-of-a-sudden pushed under the rug with very little fanfare from DC creatives. And as much as it sucked, the worst part about the whole thing was how creatively soulless it felt. It was so obviously just some decision made by some nameless higher-up and the whole "kinda-break" felt weak from the outset and didn't accurately reflect the condition of the relationship at the time. Felt disrespectful to the characters and invested readers.

Howard's Catwoman is basically the epitome of that. The way she writes Selina, and the book as a whole, it is honestly disrespectful to all that had come before and almost like a slap in the face to everyone who had bought into the story and become invested. It doesn't feel like the same Selina who we got to see develop in the last half-decade or so. Just some cheap handwave call-backs every now and then.

It's a huge creative letdown for a lot of people. Also, in my opinion, Howard's writing is just straight up not enjoyable. Feels like more a self-insert fantasy of Howard's than anything else. Selina's voice is off. There is very little narrative weight or tension in the book. And the less said about Selina choosing this insanely cliche, annoying and unlikable Valmont character over Bruce, the better.

Huh, thought Howard was regarded as one of the better writers in the business. Course, even the best have their off days.

Stuff like this is pretty frustrating, but I guess the way I see it that the authors are obligated to follow mandates. If I was a pro writer and assigned something I didn't agree with, I think there would come a point to say: "I don't agree with this change or new direction, but you're the ones in charge, so I'll do my best to make the best possible version of what you want."

[godisawesome]

The Batman/Catwoman relationship is really popular. You mean to tell me fans of Catwoman wouldn't want to read about it because... why? All it would require is that every time she has to kiss someone, it's Bruce. Tall, dark and handsome Bruce Wayne, a relationship that has been part of her character for decades and is extremely popular. So much so she can't appear in outside media without them flirting or hooking up.

Seriously. What? That's like arguing Lois and Clark would divorce if she got an ongoing. If anything, there'd just be panels where she pretends to go out for a smoke and grab a superspeed smooch from her husband as he flies by with the lunch she forgot at home and then go back to Lois Lane shit. lol

I think this insistence on a “reset” is simply the age-old habit comic editors and writers have enforcing a status quo that generally involves single characters as an almost immutable part of the formula. Sometimes, they deliberately and bluntly state their belief that a married or even just committed hero is boring - see: Dan Didio or Joe Quesada - but other times… I think it’s honesty just a reflexive thing they do.

There’s probably someone who’s immediate thought the second Tom King lost the Batman book was “end the marriage, reset to the classic status quo” without even really considering why they thought that.

[Robanker]

I think this insistence on a “reset” is simply the age-old habit comic editors and writers have enforcing a status quo that generally involves single characters as an almost immutable part of the formula. Sometimes, they deliberately and bluntly state their belief that a married or even just committed hero is boring - see: Dan Didio or Joe Quesada - but other times… I think it’s honesty just a reflexive thing they do.

There’s probably someone who’s immediate thought the second Tom King lost the Batman book was “end the marriage, reset to the classic status quo” without even really considering why they thought that.

Oh, absolutely. I'm arguing that the idea that a character has to be single because they have a book is preposterous.

[godisawesome]

Oh, absolutely. I'm arguing that the idea that a character has to be single because they have a book is preposterous.

Agreed.

I can see where a writer or editor may insist at the idea of Batman’s wife/“wife”/totally-committed-to girlfriend might “limit” story decisions… but in reality, that character type is no more limited than a sidekick - and Tim Drake had a solo way back in the 90’s.

You just need a writer and editor who can work out how the character’s independent adventures and stories work in concert with the “parent” property - and frankly, the idea of, say, Selina having one hell of an independent adventure that leaves her exhausted and so tired she just kind of limps to Wayne Manor and just kind of collapses on the nearest bed to Bruce’s relief/amusement would be hilarious, heartwarming, and a useful way to emphasize the trial she just went through.

[millernumber1]

It was so obviously just some decision made by some nameless higher-up and the whole "kinda-break" felt weak from the outset and didn't accurately reflect the condition of the relationship at the time. Felt disrespectful to the characters and invested readers.

Howard's Catwoman is basically the epitome of that. The way she writes Selina, and the book as a whole, it is honestly disrespectful to all that had come before and almost like a slap in the face to everyone who had bought into the story and become invested. It doesn't feel like the same Selina who we got to see develop in the last half-decade or so. Just some cheap handwave call-backs every now and then.

It's a huge creative letdown for a lot of people. Also, in my opinion, Howard's writing is just straight up not enjoyable. Feels like more a self-insert fantasy of Howard's than anything else. Selina's voice is off. There is very little narrative weight or tension in the book. And the less said about Selina choosing this insanely cliche, annoying and unlikable Valmont character over Bruce, the better.

It's not even just "obviously". Tynion has said in his newsletters (sadly behind the paywall, though if you check my link in my bio - apologies for the self plug, but there's a reason for it - I've summarized and excerpted a lot of the insights he shared) that DC editorial demanded that he break up Batman and Catwoman harshly. He pushed back - made it a "break" rather than a "break up" - but it's EXTREMELY clear that for whatever reason, DC editorial (no one was ever named by Tynion) immediately put the "break them up" word out to the Batman writer as soon as King was gone.

I happen to think that Zdarsky is playing the long game with them - similar to how he played Daredevil and Elektra in his run over at Marvel - starting them out apart, and building to them together - a nice, satisfying narrative shape. We'll see if anyone at DC will let that become the status quo, though.

And that's a really excellent summary and analysis of Howard's writing. If I weren't assigned to write the Catwoman reviews, I would have dropped the book long, long ago. Such a letdown after Ram V's truly excellent take on the run.

That and Howard really doesn't seem to be writing the male characters in this book well...

The fact that she seems to share Cecil Castellucci's attitude towards them doesn't help. Seriously.

Gen-Xers, Millenials, and Zoomers just aren’t as attracted to revolving door romances as Boomers were. We’d all much rather see talented writers toy with an existing relationship.

I hope so. I much prefer seeing long term, committed couples in stories. I'm beyond irritated at the editorial breakups of Bruce and Selina, Tim and Steph, and Peter and MJ in the last few years.

Huh, thought Howard was regarded as one of the better writers in the business. Course, even the best have their off days.

I think Howard is a very polarizing writer. She definitely has a lot of fans, but I'm in the part of the fandom that finds her writing really distressing and poorly done.

I think this insistence on a “reset” is simply the age-old habit comic editors and writers have enforcing a status quo that generally involves single characters as an almost immutable part of the formula. Sometimes, they deliberately and bluntly state their belief that a married or even just committed hero is boring - see: Dan Didio or Joe Quesada - but other times… I think it’s honesty just a reflexive thing they do.

There’s probably someone who’s immediate thought the second Tom King lost the Batman book was “end the marriage, reset to the classic status quo” without even really considering why they thought that.

I'd also point to the fact that so many of those people who we KNOW have made editorial policy against marriage...are not married.

Agreed.

I can see where a writer or editor may insist at the idea of Batman’s wife/“wife”/totally-committed-to girlfriend might “limit” story decisions… but in reality, that character type is no more limited than a sidekick - and Tim Drake had a solo way back in the 90’s.

You just need a writer and editor who can work out how the character’s independent adventures and stories work in concert with the “parent” property - and frankly, the idea of, say, Selina having one hell of an independent adventure that leaves her exhausted and so tired she just kind of limps to Wayne Manor and just kind of collapses on the nearest bed to Bruce’s relief/amusement would be hilarious, heartwarming, and a useful way to emphasize the trial she just went through.

The writers and editors just don't want to try. It's incredibly frustrating.