Selina Kyle: Catwoman 2022 Appreciation Thread

[HsssH]

Could always give Catwoman and one Batman title to one writer.

[godisawesome]

Assuming they can get on the same page and character beats...

The thing is… that shouldn’t be hard. It shouldn’t even really be unusual, actually.

It’s what, a phone call or email every month if neither worker has any big crossover ideas, and a fairly simple two-book collaboration if they *do* want to do crossovers?

That kind of low-level collaboration would be child’s play back in the days of Denny O’Neil, not even really worth commenting on.

Now, I remember that report two years ago or so of the Batgirl writer not even being invited to a writer retreat everyone else went on, but that just makes me think of editorial dysfunction.

[Frontier]

The thing is… that shouldn’t be hard. It shouldn’t even really be unusual, actually.

It’s what, a phone call or email every month if neither worker has any big crossover ideas, and a fairly simple two-book collaboration if they *do* want to do crossovers?

That kind of low-level collaboration would be child’s play back in the days of Denny O’Neil, not even really worth commenting on.

Now, I remember that report two years ago or so of the Batgirl writer not even being invited to a writer retreat everyone else went on, but that just makes me think of editorial dysfunction.

Would a Catwoman writer want to write a Catwoman together with Batman? I know we're giving Howard a lot of flack, but she doesn't seem keen on her being together with Bruce again and DC thought she was qualified to write the book.

[millernumber1]

Would a Catwoman writer want to write a Catwoman together with Batman? I know we're giving Howard a lot of flack, but she doesn't seem keen on her being together with Bruce again and DC thought she was qualified to write the book.

Some Catwoman writers might. But Howard getting the job fits, to me, with what I know of editorial being very, very anti Bat/Cat being together as a status quo post King.

[phonogram12]

As someone else said, it may not even be up to Howard at this point. I mean, as easy of a target as writers are, a good chunk of the time they're just following the instructions of editorial.

That said, if I were writing Catwoman, I wouldn't have the least bit of a problem if Selina were in a relationship during my run...I just wouldn't devote more than a few panels (a page or two at most) every story arc or so to it. I'd imagine as a writer I'd have my own ideas and wouldn't be particularly interested in writing Selina in a relationship with another character whose stories are ultimately someone else's to write (even if it is Bats).

However, if I were writing another Batman/Catwoman book, that's all I'd be interested in writing about since that would be the primary focus of the series.

[Top Hat]

I woke up to this tragic news. The last released Catwoman issue gave me a glimmer of hope for BatCat but this seems to be the nail in the coffin for now. A sad day, still months of waiting for it too.

It’s the same with Ivy & Harley it seems to be case of all established relationships must die at the moment with DC.

[WebLurker]

It’s the same with Ivy & Harley it seems to be case of all established relationships must die at the moment with DC.

It seems like the big two rarely like committed relationships and want the characters to be as unattached as possible. Course, given that it's a medium where the story never ends and stuff eventually gets recycled, plot points are going to get repeated, including falling outs and break ups. I guess the way I see it is to keep that in mind and hope that the couple you like is between the hero and the "primary" or most iconic love interest. Those will always come back sooner or later and are too engrained to really erase.

[Top Hat]

It seems like the big two rarely like committed relationships and want the characters to be as unattached as possible. Course, given that it's a medium where the story never ends and stuff eventually gets recycled, plot points are going to get repeated, including falling outs and break ups. I guess the way I see it is to keep that in mind and hope that the couple you like is between the hero and the "primary" or most iconic love interest. Those will always come back sooner or later and are too engrained to really erase.

It feels like at the moment it is more an issue with the Bat titles than other parts of DC.

[WebLurker]

It feels like at the moment it is more an issue with the Bat titles than other parts of DC.

The big stars tend to be the ones that the Powers That Be want to keep unchanged; if Batman is happy with Catwoman, he's no longer a miserable loner who can make out with whoever the writers want him to. Can see the point though; Batman and Catwoman are on the outs, I've seen plenty of frustration on other threads that Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown were broken up so Tim could date other people (not a fan of Stephanie with Tim, honestly, but I can get the frustration). At least Bat/Cat fans can reassure themselves that the two will be together again, if nothing else that she's cemented herself as the Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson of the franchise.

[Frontier]

I'm sure we'll still get Bat/Cat content one way or another.

[godisawesome]

The big stars tend to be the ones that the Powers That Be want to keep unchanged; if Batman is happy with Catwoman, he's no longer a miserable loner who can make out with whoever the writers want him to. Can see the point though; Batman and Catwoman are on the outs, I've seen plenty of frustration on other threads that Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown were broken up so Tim could date other people (not a fan of Stephanie with Tim, honestly, but I can get the frustration). At least Bat/Cat fans can reassure themselves that the two will be together again, if nothing else that she's cemented herself as the Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson of the franchise.

First:

(Insult tired old joke about how you can be just as miserable while attached to someone as you can while being a loner) And he hasn’t been a loner since the earliest days of the character.

Second:

I’m trying to think of the last *major* insert-love-interest-here characters we had in the Bat books that people cared about to comment on… and I think it’s Julie Madison for Amnesia!Bruce under Snyder, and Jezebel Jet as a blatant femme fatale commentary.

I don't think anyone really wants the interchangeable love interests that use to be comic book’s bread and butter anymore; we want *something* either more substantial, or something that serves a further purpose.

[millernumber1]

Agreed.

Though how was Jezebel a commentary on anything? She was barely a character.

[godisawesome]

Agreed.

Though how was Jezebel a commentary on anything? She was barely a character.

I think the idea was: “Here’s an obvious, even in the name, femme fatale, and I’m going to go through the motions with her the way any competent writer would, before revealing that of course Bruce figured it out almost immediately, because he’s the ******* Batman!”

When I say “commentary” here, I mean the kind of blunt “meta-commentary” that so many creators try, and only a few can do well, where the idea is to just toy with audience expectations. Morrison wasn’t be too ambitious with Jezebel, which is why she wasn’t ever really truly fleshed out, but also why she wasn’t as aggravatingly misapplied as other meta-commentary-specific characters (see: almost all of the writing for The Last Jedi’s characters). She was strictly an archetype they wanted to play with, nothing more.

In comparison, Julie Madison was a very specific type of “functional character” - still not really meant to stand outside of the story, and really only functional for a very specific type of “what could have been” story, but still more than just an archetype as Jet was.

But I think both examples, and the way they contrast with Catwoman, highlights what types of “lesser” romantic interests audiences tolerate today, but don’t necessarily enjoy - they’re there for narrative purposes, and that’s it. That's better than the “love interests” David Finch tried to introduce in his Dark Knight book, but it’s still limited.

I think I’d call it the “Andrea Beaumont Rule,” though it was already existing before MotP: Batman fans, male and female, really don’t care about love interests that couldn’t hold their own franchise or series down, no matter how hard a writer tries to make the “mundane love interest” work. We once got invested in Vicki Vale and Silver St. Cloud, but both faded before Catwoman, Talia, The Phantasm and I’d argue even Zatanna, even though she’s never actually been the “official” love interest. Even Sasha Bordeaux arguably backs the point up, since people remember her far more than Vesper Lynd.

[WebLurker]

First:

(Insult tired old joke about how you can be just as miserable while attached to someone as you can while being a loner) And he hasn’t been a loner since the earliest days of the character.

I was being somewhat sarcastic.

Second:

I’m trying to think of the last *major* insert-love-interest-here characters we had in the Bat books that people cared about to comment on… and I think it’s Julie Madison for Amnesia!Bruce under Snyder, and Jezebel Jet as a blatant femme fatale commentary.

Well, you know more than me; I assumed Talia had been the last major one before Catwoman got really solidified.

I don't think anyone really wants the interchangeable love interests that use to be comic book’s bread and butter anymore; we want *something* either more substantial, or something that serves a further purpose.

Probably not, although I'm pretty dang sure that some of us don't agree. Case in point, while I only heard about it, I kinda liked the idea of Nightwing ending up with reformed vandal "Defacer" more so than Barbara Gordon; meeting your significant other on the first try is less common than it being someone else later down the road, the idea that his showing mercy changed both their futures for the better is quite the origin story, and it could make for some interesting team dynamics with Barbara having to come to terms that she missed her chance and Dick figuring out how to navigate the situation. Obviously was never going to happen, but I thought it would've been a cool scenario.

Going a little more into personal experience, I was kinda biting my tongue a bit on some of the threads where people were expressing their frustration with Stephanie Brown breaking up with Tim Drake; as much as it has its fans, I'm one of those weirdos who'd rather see Steph get together with her friend, Cassandra Cain. That might be more likely than the Nightwing scenario (apparently their Future State story was supposed to have them be ex-lovers who get a second chance to be together and take it), but, once again, probably not a majority opinion.

All that said, while I think a lot of fans would like the characters to be in one committed relationship (whether or not they agree who the lucky guy or gal should be), I don't think the writers want that and they're the ones making these decisions.

[Matt Rat]

Batman#126 preview has Bruce reveal that he

spoilers:

Couldn't marry Selina and afford a distraction Erm, yes, he was willing to marry her, it was Selina that chose not to marry him, and then said they didn't need to because they were together in their hearts. Research Chip.

end of spoilers