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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I think I'm mostly comparing it to the Balent run, Jeph Loeb's portrayal, and the abominable nu 52 incarnations. Every writer that seemed to be teamed with Balent disappointingly followed his lead, portraying her as an immature child. And I'll probably be the outlier on this one, but I really don't think Loeb's version was much better. And the less said about the nu 52 version the better. I did get some chemistry during Brubaker's run, but it always came off to me as two exes who've long since moved on from each other and simply became friends afterwards (with some benefits applied every once in awhile).
    I guess to me I just don't see her as an "immature child" even if she's very spontaneous and at times selfish or ego driven, but in a way that still came off like an adult woman. Compared to the New 52 I'd say 90's Selina was a lot more mature (although she's not the only character who that would apply too).

    I thought Loeb's Selina was okay.

    I feel like Brubaker conveyed how much passion there still was between each other and how much they cared for one another, especially compared to their interactions with other characters or lack of conflicting love interests. But that's just me.

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I guess to me I just don't see her as an "immature child" even if she's very spontaneous and at times selfish or ego driven, but in a way that still came off like an adult woman. Compared to the New 52 I'd say 90's Selina was a lot more mature (although she's not the only character who that would apply too).

    I thought Loeb's Selina was okay.

    I feel like Brubaker conveyed how much passion there still was between each other and how much they cared for one another, especially compared to their interactions with other characters or lack of conflicting love interests. But that's just me.
    The Balent era Selina was probably written at her best overall by Chuck Dixon (big shocker), where she had all the fun and spunky personality that Balent kept on drawing in her facial expressions, but had the same no-nonsense expertise and professionalism as a thief that Brubaker would write her with, and with this hilarious attempt to deny to herself how much she had a heart of gold hidden underneath a self-identity as an amoral pragmatist. Brubaker is version honestly just came off as a more self-aware Selina embracing her compassion for others.

    Loeb’s version was at her best whenever Loeb wrote her and Bruce into quick, fun little domestic situations, where his otherwise just as formulaic character writing compared to King would suddenly contrast in its down-to-earth believability.

    King seemed to get obsessed with that sort of self-congratulatory meta-dialogue that isn’t even really fun but mostly just “boringly surreal.”
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I guess to me I just don't see her as an "immature child" even if she's very spontaneous and at times selfish or ego driven, but in a way that still came off like an adult woman. Compared to the New 52 I'd say 90's Selina was a lot more mature (although she's not the only character who that would apply too).
    IDK, I thought they were about on par, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like Brubaker conveyed how much passion there still was between each other and how much they cared for one another, especially compared to their interactions with other characters or lack of conflicting love interests. But that's just me.
    IDK, like I said, to me it just seemed like something they had left in the past. They're still fairly close (every once in awhile even cashing in a benefit or two), but it always came off as if they had just moved on from each other.

    I'm still stunned any writer could actually convince me that they could make for any sort of interesting couple, but King somehow did it.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    IDK, I thought they were about on par, personally.
    I guess if I had to compare the two one is a healthy amount of a thrill junkie while the other isn't. Post-Crisis also came off more experienced because it wasn't the New 52/truncated timeline and we got her full backstory.
    IDK, like I said, to me it just seemed like something they had left in the past. They're still fairly close (every once in awhile even cashing in a benefit or two), but it always came off as if they had just moved on from each other.

    I'm still stunned any writer could actually convince me that they could make for any sort of interesting couple, but King somehow did it.
    I mean, the way they look at each other and constantly orbit around each other, pretty hard to say they've moved on .

    BatCat has been a thing for so long that it was pretty popular even before King tried to make it the main thrust of his run.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, the way they look at each other and constantly orbit around each other, pretty hard to say they've moved on .
    IDK, they are kind of in the same line of work, so it really wouldn't be unheard of that they still bump into each other every now and again and be friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    BatCat has been a thing for so long that it was pretty popular even before King tried to make it the main thrust of his run.
    Oh, I agree that it was popular. I just don't really think it was very well-portrayed post-Crisis until Rebirth.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  6. #381
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    Anyone worried that Selina is full blown villain again should be relieved that its just Haley, Dick's dog imagination of saving the day in the mini story of Nightwing Annual. lol

  7. #382
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    Anyone worried that Selina is full blown villain again should be relieved that its just Haley, Dick's dog imagination of saving the day in the mini story of Nightwing Annual. lol
    That's a funny thing, during the Ric Grayson era, there's a page showing Nightwing's villains, and Selina is among them. This is funny because Dick has always been #TeamSelina, sometimes too much (Nightwing 52, Gotham City Sirens 7)

  8. #383
    Ultimate Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Also ironically Selina may be responsible for saving the Justice Society from Per Degaton.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    IDK, they are kind of in the same line of work, so it really wouldn't be unheard of that they still bump into each other every now and again and be friendly.
    In that sense yeah, but their interactions and the way they are around each other is very different from co-workers. Like they're physically drawn to each other rather than it just being happenstance.
    Oh, I agree that it was popular. I just don't really think it was very well-portrayed post-Crisis until Rebirth.
    Personally I don't think Rebirth portrayed it very organically at times, but I was already a fan of the relationship so I was probably biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Silveira View Post
    That's a funny thing, during the Ric Grayson era, there's a page showing Nightwing's villains, and Selina is among them. This is funny because Dick has always been #TeamSelina, sometimes too much (Nightwing 52, Gotham City Sirens 7)
    Well, there was that time she basically threw herself at him during Post-Crisis.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    In that sense yeah, but their interactions and the way they are around each other is very different from co-workers. Like they're physically drawn to each other rather than it just being happenstance.
    I'm not sure I would go so far as drawn. More like if they happen to be in the same place at the same time, sure, but more in terms of two ex-lovers who have since moved on from one another but share the occasional benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Personally I don't think Rebirth portrayed it very organically at times, but I was already a fan of the relationship so I was probably biased.
    Like I said King really turned me around on them. He's the only one who's been able to.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I'm not sure I would go so far as drawn. More like if they happen to be in the same place at the same time, sure, but more in terms of two ex-lovers who have since moved on from one another but share the occasional benefits.
    I think they're pretty much on the DickxBabs level of running into each other, still being pretty into each other, but never quite able to get together until certain runs and their chemistry just radiates off the panels.
    Like I said King really turned me around on them. He's the only one who's been able to.
    Which for me...I appreciated his intentions but the execution left a lot to be desired. But I'm used to that with King.

  12. #387
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, there was that time she basically threw herself at him during Post-Crisis.
    Yes, Nightwing #52, and also that in Gotham City Sirens #7......

    Gotham City Sirens 007-004.jpg

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think they're pretty much on the DickxBabs level of running into each other, still being pretty into each other, but never quite able to get together until certain runs and their chemistry just radiates off the panels.
    Well considering Dick and Babs are together right now and have even been 'married' several times in between, that's a weird comparison.

    At least Selina still wants to make it work with Bruce even if it's 'her way'. Nobody ever truly moves on from a romantic partnership, that's what poly relations are for in some lifestyles.
    Last edited by Matt Rat; 11-30-2022 at 04:17 AM.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I'm not sure I would go so far as drawn. More like if they happen to be in the same place at the same time, sure, but more in terms of two ex-lovers who have since moved on from one another but share the occasional benefits.

    Like I said King really turned me around on them. He's the only one who's been able to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think they're pretty much on the DickxBabs level of running into each other, still being pretty into each other, but never quite able to get together until certain runs and their chemistry just radiates off the panels.

    Which for me...I appreciated his intentions but the execution left a lot to be desired. But I'm used to that with King.
    I think it's two different philosophies for both the relationship and how Catwoman is written overall.

    King is very much writing in the Doug Moenche style of a much less flirty and more "poetic gothic romance" style, where the flirting still happens, but not that much, and there's sort of an undercurrent of two damaged people being attracted to each other, and a Catwoman who's more cool and calm than energetic and hot blooded. I think it also tends to fit a Batman who isn't nearly that emotionally involved because he's also colder - it definitely fits with a version of Bruce who could still be attracted to Talia when Talia is still deeply problematic as a love interest.

    But the rest of the pre-Rebirth writing for the characters tended to favor a much more energetic and much more flirty relationship and characterization for Selina - with some of the subtext being that Selina flips between genuine light flirtation and a more "defense mechanism" of denial about how much she's drawn to Bruce beyond his physical appearance, and where Bruce has a similar deep attraction to Selina's hidden heart of gold and her vivaciousness.

    Paul Dini's probably the king of writing the latter type of Catwoman and BatCat - and I infinitely prefer it.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  15. #390
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    Well considering Dick and Babs are together right now and have even been 'married' several times in between, that's a weird comparison.

    At least Selina still wants to make it work with Bruce even if it's 'her way'. Nobody ever truly moves on from a romantic partnership, that's what poly relations are for in some lifestyles.
    Yeah, but there was a lot of drawn out will they or won't they before that.

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