Mr. Miyagi vs Rocky Balboa

[grampagen]

There is simply no chance that he grabs the significantly quicker Miyagi before Miyagi pressure-points him to unconsciousness or throws him through a wall or two.

Though it was retconned in, Mr. Miyagi never used the pressure points himself, and as demonstrated by Johnny in Cobra Kai, it's not exactly Hokuto Shinken.

He's also never thrown anyone through a wall, the best he's done is use Terry Silver's own momentum to throw him into a mirror.

The arrow-timing is neat, but I don't think it gels with the rest of his combat feats consistently.

Miyagi fights like an old and largely immobile man. At what point is catching an arrow SMvsFL when placed shading pretty much every other instance of him doing combat?

And his breaking of logs requires wind up that he simply won't have in an actual fight. Logs don't hit back.

Just to address this, he did break fallen support beam during the Okinawan storm, but I'm presuming the log is this one:



He doesn't break it. It's a symbol of the past friendship he had with Sato he spends the movie trying to rekindle. Even as a display of supriority, that would be pretty cruel if he did.

[Powerboy]

Miyagi fights like an old and largely immobile man. At what point is catching an arrow SMvsFL when placed shading pretty much every other instance of him doing combat?

And his breaking of logs requires wind up that he simply won't have in an actual fight. Logs don't hit back.

Well, a largely immobile man who never gets hit and does an upside down Spider-Man crawl down a fence, who dodges two punches from an allegedly master, slices the tops off bottles, presumably by the speed of the strike, etc. As someone said in the other Miyagi thread, don't confuse the actor with the character and his abilities.

As a skilled boxer once put it, Stallone is a horrible boxer. and looks like a horrible boxer on-screen But don't conflate that with Rocky's abilities. His biggest plus is his superhuman ability to soak damage. He's also fast, as fast as Miyagi when a stuntman was standing in for Morita.

As for catching an arrow, I see it the opposite way, as pretty much in keeping with what we see in the fights, a guy who never gets hit, even against multiple opponents.

Opinions of the fight choreography and the actual abilities of both actors may vary. But that should not affect what is supposed to be shown whether it's Captain Kirk, Darth Sidious, Miyagi or Rocky. We understand that they are all total badass fighters.

As for the actual fight, I lean towards the guy who fights multiple opponents and martial masters and never gets hit. I agree that Miyagi had to focus to break that support beam in two.

[Jcogginsa]

As far as "Needs to focus to break the log bit" It's possible that the focus was to ensure he didn't accidently hurt the guy he was trying to save who was directly underneath the beam. IE, more about making sure he's precise than needing to build up strength

[T51R]

Are we allowing in the later stuff like the pressure points?

[Nik Hasta]

As far as "Needs to focus to break the log bit" It's possible that the focus was to ensure he didn't accidently hurt the guy he was trying to save who was directly underneath the beam. IE, more about making sure he's precise than needing to build up strength

This is absolutely wild conjecture and a really flawed way to look at a feat.

[Jcogginsa]

Are we allowing in the later stuff like the pressure points?

If they're stated to be something he knows, then I don't see why not.

This is absolutely wild conjecture and a really flawed way to look at a feat.

I mean, "He needs to take time to build up strength" is also conjecture. I don't recall any verbal explanation of it. And charging up attacks isn't a thing in Karate Kid. And none of his physical motions look like things that would drastically enhance his striking power.

[Nik Hasta]

I mean, "He needs to take time to build up strength" is also conjecture. I don't recall any verbal explanation of it. And charging up attacks isn't a thing in Karate Kid. And none of his physical motions look like things that would drastically enhance his striking power.

There's a difference between my position ["this character seems to take some time to wind up to perform the highest strength feat we have on record for them, therefore he needs to focus and bring his strength to its peak to it and it's not necessarily something he can just bust out on the fly"] and your position ["this character seems to take time to focus to /hold back/ some theoretical higher level of power he has never displayed to avoid hurting someone he wasn't hitting,"]

My position maintains that the highest level feat we have for Miyagi is his theoretical limit of striking power. Yours posits that Miyagi that could actually hit significantly /harder/ than his shown limits to whatever degree you decide to go with. One is rooted in the feat, the other is rooted in your imagined view of his capacities.

It is a bad argument and a flawed way to assess a feat.

Also, winding up to perform a feat of strength is a real thing in the real world. If you've ever lifted weights or done martial arts or similar, you will have experienced this.

[Jcogginsa]

There's a difference between my position ["this character seems to take some time to wind up to perform the highest strength feat we have on record for them, therefore he needs to focus and bring his strength to its peak to it and it's not necessarily something he can just bust out on the fly"] and your position ["this character seems to take time to focus to /hold back/ some theoretical higher level of power he has never displayed to avoid hurting someone he wasn't hitting,"]

My position maintains that the highest level feat we have for Miyagi is his theoretical limit of striking power. Yours posits that Miyagi that could actually hit significantly /harder/ than his shown limits to whatever degree you decide to go with. One is rooted in the feat, the other is rooted in your imagined view of his capacities.

It is a bad argument and a flawed way to assess a feat.

Also, winding up to perform a feat of strength is a real thing in the real world. If you've ever lifted weights or done martial arts or similar, you will have experienced this.

1. I worded my original point poorly. My intent was not "Miyagi can actually hit even harder", it was "Miyagi might not need to take that much time to pull out that strength in a situation where he's actually trying to harm someone."

2. Miyagi is striking the beam in a place that is directly above Sato's chest. If he messes up, that force is gonna push the beam into Sato, and hurt him.

3. I'm familiar with the concept of winding up to do something, but not the actual technique of it. Is what Miyagi does in line with how someone would wind up to strike in real life

[big_adventure]

Miyagi fights like an old and largely immobile man. At what point is catching an arrow SMvsFL when placed shading pretty much every other instance of him doing combat?

See, I don't think that it's SMvFL, because he's literally never hit by anyone ever. If he were getting tagged during fights, yeah, that would be SMvFL. But he's presented as an absolutely unbeatable fighter, and he... is never beaten at all. Never touched at all. Like Powerboy said, don't conflate the actor with the skills he's presented as having. It's a plot point that Danny says only his baby son ever managed to hit Miyagi with a shot in all the years they knew each other. The guy is only in a few fights: the battle against the entire strike team of the CK - who he demolishes all at once, without at all trying to hurt anyone, and never takes a touch. Against Kreese, who he lets throw the first shot, then takes the guy apart like a joke. Against the punk ass kid (can't think of his name, certainly am not going to look it up) in KK3 - it's off-screen, but the kids comes flying through a door, thrown at least 10 feet or so, and the kid is on the cover of martial arts magazines and is massively better than Danny before further training. Against Silver and Kreese at the same time, and he humiliates them both, trivially. In all of these fights, he's against trained fighters significantly younger than he is, generally against more than one at a time, doesn't want to really hurt them, and still never gets so much as touched. That level of reaction speed is extremely consistent, even if it tracks a bit silly when it comes from the body of a slightly chubby, ancient Japanese comedian.

And his breaking of logs requires wind up that he simply won't have in an actual fight. Logs don't hit back.

That's not all he has, of course. But it goes to striking force that is massively higher than Rocky.

[Guy1]

See, I don't think that it's SMvFL, because he's literally never hit by anyone ever..

He did get hit by Chozen's spear that one time but his back was turned and he was in the middle of helping Daniel stand back up.

Against the punk ass kid (can't think of his name, certainly am not going to look it up) in KK3 - it's off-screen, but the kids comes flying through a door, thrown at least 10 feet or so, and the kid is on the cover of martial arts magazines and is massively better than Danny before further training

Mike Barnes.

[grampagen]

See, I don't think that it's SMvFL, because he's literally never hit by anyone ever. If he were getting tagged during fights, yeah, that would be SMvFL. But he's presented as an absolutely unbeatable fighter, and he... is never beaten at all. Never touched at all. Like Powerboy said, don't conflate the actor with the skills he's presented as having. It's a plot point that Danny says only his baby son ever managed to hit Miyagi with a shot in all the years they knew each other. The guy is only in a few fights: the battle against the entire strike team of the CK - who he demolishes all at once, without at all trying to hurt anyone, and never takes a touch. Against Kreese, who he lets throw the first shot, then takes the guy apart like a joke. Against the punk ass kid (can't think of his name, certainly am not going to look it up) in KK3 - it's off-screen, but the kids comes flying through a door, thrown at least 10 feet or so, and the kid is on the cover of martial arts magazines and is massively better than Danny before further training. Against Silver and Kreese at the same time, and he humiliates them both, trivially. In all of these fights, he's against trained fighters significantly younger than he is, generally against more than one at a time, doesn't want to really hurt them, and still never gets so much as touched. That level of reaction speed is extremely consistent, even if it tracks a bit silly when it comes from the body of a slightly chubby, ancient Japanese comedian.

So where do we draw the line between objectivity in the feats and the subjective interpretation of portrayal?

These trained fighters are products of mini-mall karate. Miyagi beat Kreese and Silver, one after the other, and in the end they were both standing up and laughing at Daniel for it. While no Cobra Kai holds a candle to Miyagi, they wouldn't last against Rocky, either, so using them as a measuring stick in this comparison is flawed because both of them are far above that scale.

That's not all he has, of course. But it goes to striking force that is massively higher than Rocky.

He's also an arrow-timer who apparently can't catch a fly with his chopsticks. How fast are those hands really?

I suppose we're going to have to Death Battle some calculations for that support beam's strength, then cross-reference that with Ivan Drago's striking power and weightlifting to get to the bottom of this, which will likely make things even sillier but I digress.

[Guy1]

So where do we draw the line between objectivity in the feats and the subjective interpretation of portrayal?

These trained fighters are products of mini-mall karate. Miyagi beat Kreese and Silver, one after the other, and in the end they were both standing up and laughing at Daniel for it. While no Cobra Kai holds a candle to Miyagi, they wouldn't last against Rocky, either, so using them as a measuring stick in this comparison is flawed because both of them are far above that scale.



He's also an arrow-timer who apparently can't catch a fly with his chopsticks. How fast are those hands really?

I suppose we're going to have to Death Battle some calculations for that support beam's strength, then cross-reference that with Ivan Drago's striking power and weightlifting to get to the bottom of this, which will likely make things even sillier but I digress.

So if Nik is Wiz, then who's Boomstick?

[grampagen]

So if Nik is Wiz, then who's Boomstick?

STAHP

...well, you're the forum mod, but all the same.

STAHP

[Guy1]

STAHP

...well, you're the forum mod, but all the same.

STAHP

[big_adventure]

He doesn't break it. It's a symbol of the past friendship he had with Sato he spends the movie trying to rekindle. Even as a display of supriority, that would be pretty cruel if he did.

Eh, of course he did? It's whole in that scene, Sato leaves Miyagi alone with it, the next time we see it, it's broken. That all seemed relatively clear to me.