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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    That's more of a general problem with the Big 2 than a specific Didio issue. Perhaps it's a symptom of the greatly retracted market since the 80s and pre-collapse 90s, but the amount of popular and successful characters Marvel and DC have been able to introduce in the last 20 years is relatively slim. For every Miles Morales, Ms. Marvel or Kate Bishop there's a half dozen Breaches, Gravities, Simon Darks and Live Wires that nobody remembers.
    At one point, both companies were about nostalgia and shock value. But the difference is that Marvel had changes in leadership and they were able to keep both old and new characters as well as making their B and C tier characters into households. In the words of Jim Shooter 'there is no first string or second string, everybody's first string'.

    Miles, Kamala and Kate also all have the full backing of the Corproate Disney backed Marvel Machine. Jaimie and Virgil are lucky if their respective projects managed to show on screen and if their appearances continue beyond that.


    Quote Originally Posted by D.Z View Post
    Fans fault for not buying the other characters books.
    That's an oversimplification. There is a lot of factors at work here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    It is not just that, as I said Batman provides a comfort zone, so they don't have the need to put energy into other characters, Has nothing to do with reversing previous decades, many fans had been asking for that. honestly Superman has been on the decline in comics since the 90's if not before. The main issue remains lack of energy to do anything to promote other characters, and if a character somehow does well, they do their utmost to stop that or dismantle all that made it happen. GL is a good example.
    Seems they don't want any character to do well since it will force them to do more work.
    In other words, Batman is a band aid. And the reason why he became a band aid is for the reasons that Bruce Wayne stated; all the other franchises have been driven to the ground while Batman remained more consistent, stable and a world onto itself.

    A lot of elements that make characters unique have been filed off with multiple variations and origins of a single character and an inability to move beyond a specific set of stories. How many times are we going to rehash Killing Joke or Raven dealing with Trigon or Superman not doing enough for the planet or WW killing Maxwell Lord? There is also a confusion on who or what characters are supposed to be. I see Warrior Woman-Daugther of Zeus WW, bland goth Zatanna, Khalid Fate, sexy Lobo, dead mom Barry Allen and it's like somebody at marketing dreamed them up.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Z View Post
    Fans fault for not buying the other characters books.
    It's more than that.

    I do Final Order Cutoff with my store-so I get to see everything that can generally be ordered. Yet come Wednesday there are books I NEVER saw on that list on the shelf. Or WORST there were books that even my store could NOT order because they were not on the order list even for them.

    Real example-The Source was a book from Scout Comics that I was interested in. I saw it on Ebay going for $100 on the first issue and even the second printing was high. My store NEVER saw it to order copies. And Scout has done this MANY times.

    Lack of promotion-Priest did a book (that was suppose to be a 5 issue series) Batman The Hill in 2001. Not ONE comic book store owner I have met knew that book existed and every single one of them would have ordered it. Priest was doing Black Panther at the time and that was Batman.

    Product being available. I can go down the line of books that were NOT available in my city-Spawn, Savage Dragon, Sam Alexander's Nova, New 52 Grifter & Marvel's Solo among the few. I can't buy what I can't find in a store. So when I hear LOW sales-Yeah you are going to get that if you can't buy the product without going online.

    And in some cases the actual STORY is the issue. Yes there are folks who actually want a good story.
    We got folks who believe you are suppose to buy a badly done book because you are the fan of the character or scream for diversity.
    Know how many times Black Panther fans got attacked for NOT supporting Coates? Mainly by unfans or Storm fans who loved what Coates did for STORM.
    Or how many folks screamed Static should NEVER be seen again because his New 52 book tanked. Did anyone actually READ that book or hear the horror stories about the editor?

    And remember we have DOUBLE standards with certain creators & characters.

    No one has an issue with Greg Land's art when it's Emma Frost and the X-Men. Suddenly it's an issue when he does Mighty Avengers.
    Robert V got all sorts of hate for his Green Lantern-yet he lasted over 75 issues and 2 books.
    Lobdell got all sorts of HATE for almost every book he did. Aside from 1-they all lasted beyond 6 issues.
    If they are so BAD-why did they get so many books that actually sold?

    For all the complaints about too many new folks in Batman that really caught fire when Duke Thomas showed up to point some folks boycotted the Batman books over his one panel cameos until 2018 when he was tossed out the book. Yet Tom King's replacement tossed in HOW many new folks? Who got more than Duke.

    Hard to have a decent selling book when you have fans and store owners take issue with either creators or leads in books.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being professional and smart about your job is more important than liking a character. Christopher Priest disliked Black Panther when he started writing the character, Bruce Timm was more of a Marvel fan and I recall even Greg Rucka saying he wasn't all that interested in Wonder Woman when he was given the job of writing her. All of these people did great work with DC characters. Meanwhile, Brian Singer claimed to be a Superman fan and we all know how Superman Returns turned out.
    Lets not forget Coates on Black Panther. He OPENLY said he did not care or T'Challa and PROVED it.
    New 52 Static Shock says HI. The editor ruined that book and almost made a writer quit writing. He did the same on Cyborg's two books.

    McDuffie-who said there was someone on his JLA run that he did NOT care for. Because they would not be on the team if he had a choice. You couldn't tell who he hated because it never showed. And this was a guy who did not care for Luke Cage or Night Thrasher. Yet never showed his dislike.

    In Dan's case you had to ask why did he have issues with so many that at various time SOLD.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    It was riddled in the past with personal rivalry, big ego's, envy etc by the people who ran DC, with the characters caught in the middle. Now many of those people are gone, you got people who don't love the characters but use them for personal agendas or not having an idea how to make them work. Bat provides a comfort zone, so who cares at the end of the day you still get paid.
    Lack of talent at DC is now very evident and mostly they are not into these characters, which is sad.
    Now I wonder about that rumor of Hickman joining DC to write LOSH.

    Did someone put a stop to it because it would overshadow the great Batman?

  5. #50
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being professional and smart about your job is more important than liking a character. Christopher Priest disliked Black Panther when he started writing the character, Bruce Timm was more of a Marvel fan and I recall even Greg Rucka saying he wasn't all that interested in Wonder Woman when he was given the job of writing her. All of these people did great work with DC characters. Meanwhile, Brian Singer claimed to be a Superman fan and we all know how Superman Returns turned out.
    What do you mean by professional?the creative is more important for creative person than either.
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  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    How sad knowing that Affleck is not here anymore.

    I think that in they have it too with Wonderwoman, Joker and Aquaman

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    What do you mean by professional?the creative is more important for creative person than either.
    Professional means not letting your ego and personal biases get in the way. This is still a job and if your "creativity" is messing with that job, that is a problem. Being creative doesn't mean anything goes.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    At one point, both companies were about nostalgia and shock value. But the difference is that Marvel had changes in leadership and they were able to keep both old and new characters as well as making their B and C tier characters into households. In the words of Jim Shooter 'there is no first string or second string, everybody's first string'.

    Miles, Kamala and Kate also all have the full backing of the Corproate Disney backed Marvel Machine. Jaimie and Virgil are lucky if their respective projects managed to show on screen and if their appearances continue beyond that.




    That's an oversimplification. There is a lot of factors at work here.



    In other words, Batman is a band aid. And the reason why he became a band aid is for the reasons that Bruce Wayne stated; all the other franchises have been driven to the ground while Batman remained more consistent, stable and a world onto itself.

    A lot of elements that make characters unique have been filed off with multiple variations and origins of a single character and an inability to move beyond a specific set of stories. How many times are we going to rehash Killing Joke or Raven dealing with Trigon or Superman not doing enough for the planet or WW killing Maxwell Lord? There is also a confusion on who or what characters are supposed to be. I see Warrior Woman-Daugther of Zeus WW, bland goth Zatanna, Khalid Fate, sexy Lobo, dead mom Barry Allen and it's like somebody at marketing dreamed them up.
    Well, in all fairness:

    "Goth" Zatanna was really only a thing for the New 52 and has been ignored since rebirth. Adaptations use a Zatanna closer to the classic depiction.

    Sexy Lobo never caught on and was limited to the comics.

    Khalid Nassour barely gets used and even then, he was one of the better ideas from the New 52 era. He was basically Kamala Khan before Kamala Khan existed.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Aquaman doesn't even have an ongoing despite getting a hit movie. We currently have one starring Jackson Hyde and another with Black Manta and that's about it. How does that compute?
    they just announced an Aquaman ongoing. Aquamen is an ongoing that's gonna be led by both Jackson and Arthur, Black Manta and Aquaman: The Becoming are both preludes to that series.
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  10. #55
    Spectacular Member TheCasualReader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    A lot of elements that make characters unique have been filed off with multiple variations and origins of a single character and an inability to move beyond a specific set of stories. How many times are we going to rehash Killing Joke or Raven dealing with Trigon or Superman not doing enough for the planet or WW killing Maxwell Lord? There is also a confusion on who or what characters are supposed to be. I see Warrior Woman-Daugther of Zeus WW, bland goth Zatanna, Khalid Fate, sexy Lobo, dead mom Barry Allen and it's like somebody at marketing dreamed them up.
    I've lurked long enough to know the context behind the rest, but I'm confused what you mean about Khalid?

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    they just announced an Aquaman ongoing. Aquamen is an ongoing that's gonna be led by both Jackson and Arthur, Black Manta and Aquaman: The Becoming are both preludes to that series.
    an Aquaman ongoing should be about Arthur and Mera. Mera playing the sidekick to Jackson is ridiculous.
    It's not just those two books that are prelude to the series, but mainly Green Arrow and Aquaman book. All those 3 books are a disaster at sales, especially the Becoming.

    Now with a movie soon to be released anyone that might be brought in, will find a book that makes no sense to them. Same mistake was done following the first movie.
    However the biggest mistake is that the 3 mentioned books and the new ongoing will be written by the same authors, who have sank Aquaman franchise to the lowest sales in its history. If nobody is reading those books that are meant to be prequels, anyone who hasn't read those books, would understand nothing. A recipe for a new cancelation

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post

    In other words, Batman is a band aid. And the reason why he became a band aid is for the reasons that Bruce Wayne stated; all the other franchises have been driven to the ground while Batman remained more consistent, stable and a world onto itself.

    A lot of elements that make characters unique have been filed off with multiple variations and origins of a single character and an inability to move beyond a specific set of stories. How many times are we going to rehash Killing Joke or Raven dealing with Trigon or Superman not doing enough for the planet or WW killing Maxwell Lord? There is also a confusion on who or what characters are supposed to be. I see Warrior Woman-Daugther of Zeus WW, bland goth Zatanna, Khalid Fate, sexy Lobo, dead mom Barry Allen and it's like somebody at marketing dreamed them up.
    I agree, but keep in mind they are not fools, they don't mess with Bruce Wayne. They know if they do that, they would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. However the issue is one, any character that does well at movies, that success is not exploited. They even seem annoyed that it happened. They have a comfort zone as I said, that is enough, they get paid at the end of the day, because bat brings the money. DC has great characters that if managed well would deliver much more, we said and heard that if it was Marvel that obtained such box office with WW and Aquaman, they would have made the most out of that. The question is why DC doesn't do that?
    Last edited by Goldrake; 01-12-2022 at 06:52 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Now I wonder about that rumor of Hickman joining DC to write LOSH.

    Did someone put a stop to it because it would overshadow the great Batman?
    More likely the previous regime thought Bendis was a better choice. They had afterall spent most of their time playing catch up to Quesada's Marvel and failing. Bendis was an obvious solution to their problems. Like everyone of their bright ideas, it didn't pan out.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 01-12-2022 at 07:50 AM.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    More likely the previous regime thought Bendis was a better choice. They had afterall spent most of their time playing catch up to Quesada's Marvel and failing. Bendis was an obvious solution to their problems. Like everyone of their bright ideas, it didn't pan out.
    Did things change/improve since the previous regime went out? My personal opinion I can see no difference between Didio and Javins.

  14. #59
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    There's a huge difference. The characters that the previous Publisher tried his hardest to bury were allowed back into their previous roles a) Wally West as Flash and b) Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. The current DC is a mess, but it's not a dumpster fire like previously where people were fired/hired for capricious reasons and viable properties were buried because it didn't fit the previous publisher's vision of DC.

  15. #60
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    There's a huge difference. The characters that the previous Publisher tried his hardest to bury were allowed back into their previous roles a) Wally West as Flash and b) Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. The current DC is a mess, but it's not a dumpster fire like previously where people were fired/hired for capricious reasons and viable properties were buried because it didn't fit the previous publisher's vision of DC.
    and now viable properties are not buried as well? you have a character that got a billion box office, has a new movie on the way, gets replaced with someone that hardly beats pennyworth at sales? before and far from defending it, people got replaced for the reasons you mention, now people are given books and left to put into these books their personal and political views. Not to mention the arrogance certain editors currently have towards fans. Dc was and is a mess.

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