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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan View Post
    I think that Dick and Jason are pretty much equal as fighters.
    No they are not. Dick is the superior fighter and that isn't something that can be argued or subjective. It's right there evidenced in lots and lots of canon stories.

    I know Jason is big so some believe he should be a good great fighter built in comics [a world where kids regularly stomp grown adults] we look at the evidence provided and judge by that.

    @Aahz
    What skills are you talking about? The All caste?
    Even when we look at the training and skills, Jason Todd isn't equal to Dick Grayson not would be or should he be.
    Those two have dedicated significantly different amounts of time to training and fighting. Dick has been doing this since he was 8 and before that he was a world famous acrobat. Dick Grayson has about 20 years on the field.

    Imagine the Skills and Experience he has mastered now compared that to Jason who has been doing this for 5 years at the most!

    That's like comparing a master to a novice.

    Of the core batfamily, Jason is one of the oldest bats but he has the least experience, training and has logged the shortest time on the field.

    Babs, Cass and Damian have more Skills, training and experience.
    Tim is the only with less training and experience.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Explain? Most people think it’s to big because characters are essentially beginning to cannibalize each other as far as roles go. (Damian and Tim , Barbra and Steph)
    Damian, Tim, Duke, Harper and Maps do seem to be Robin types while Cass, Babs and Steph are batgirls.

    They can all work.

    Damian and tim are Robin types but they don't bring the same element to a story so that shouldn't be a problem.

    The stories you can write with Damian can't be done with Tim That is a key detail.

  3. #33
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    @Aahz
    What skills are you talking about? The All caste?
    Even when we look at the training and skills, Jason Todd isn't equal to Dick Grayson not would be or should he be.
    Those two have dedicated significantly different amounts of time to training and fighting. Dick has been doing this since he was 8 and before that he was a world famous acrobat. Dick Grayson has about 20 years on the field.

    Imagine the Skills and Experience he has mastered now compared that to Jason who has been doing this for 5 years at the most!

    That's like comparing a master to a novice.

    Of the core batfamily, Jason is one of the oldest bats but he has the least experience, training and has logged the shortest time on the field.
    Jason also had street level skills by the time he got to train under Bruce at twelve. And he received training from the League and different masters across the time he was under Talia.
    Maybe not to the level of Dick, but he's been under training and gained experience for 10 years (he's 20-something now) under a wide variety of masters, not just the All-Caste (it wasn't just the all-caste either during New52). Especially if we take into account the old post-Crisis stuff that he had going for himself in Lost Days and was erased with the new timeline with New 52. Being them just memories or not. I would say he has more training than Steph, Barbara and Tim. And more experience than Tim, Steph and Kate as a vigilante into superheroics.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-17-2022 at 03:33 PM.
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  4. #34
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Dick Grayson's original Robin costume needs to be permanently retconned to something a little less green chainmail bikini with bare legs looking. Just never show that outfit again, even in flashbacks. The only exception is period stories like Justice League The New Frontier.

    Ditto Jason Todd's.

    On a similar note, Batman's whole underwear outside the pants look that some people call trunks needs to go and never make a reappearance. Again with exceptions for stories set in a period setting, basically the 30's through 50's.


    I know that it's an unpopular opinion what with a lot of fans needing the costume that they grew up with never changing with the times, but seriously these costume elements became a joke long before 90% of us were born.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    @Aahz
    What skills are you talking about? The All caste?
    Training by Batman, the All Caste and alls the trainers Talia got for him (a trainig that was said to be similar to the one Bruce went trough before he became Batman).


    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Even when we look at the training and skills, Jason Todd isn't equal to Dick Grayson not would be or should he be.
    Those two have dedicated significantly different amounts of time to training and fighting. Dick has been doing this since he was 8 and before that he was a world famous acrobat. Dick Grayson has about 20 years on the field.
    The more plausible Version of his origin story has Dick become Robin at 12, around the same age Jason became Robin, and he is at this point likely more 15 years in the field than 20 (assuming pre flashpoint timeline).

    Considering that Catwomans training comes for the most part down to being a street kid in Gotham, and that Jason is usually shown to quite able to handle himself in a fight even before Batman takes him in, I don't really see a big advantage for Dick in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Babs, Cass and Damian have more Skills, training and experience.
    Tim is the only with less training and experience.
    Not really.
    Babs original turn as Batgirl was not that long in Universe, she didn't really got much training from Batman or anyone else back than, and was basically semi retired during Jasons time as Robin. She was longer in the wheel chair than Jason dead, their active time in the field should be pretty equal.

    Cass taining stoped when she ran away from David Cain at the age of 9, and she has at best around the same time in the field as he has (and if we go with the post flashpoint timeline she is appart from Duke the least experienced member).

    And Damian and Jason had the same person organise their training, so I guess their training was pretty equal in quality (with the exception of the All Caste Training Jason has).

    I think in the end it comes down to how you rate experience in the field vs crazy over the top training. Dick is longer in the field than anybody in the batfamily except Batman, but he never did that "travelling the world to get trained by various masters"-thing Jason did.

    Is Jason as good as Dick, hard to say, but he should be at least far better than he his usually written (especially in Batfamily events).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Training by Batman, the All Caste and alls the trainers Talia got for him (a trainig that was said to be similar to the one Bruce went trough before he became Batman).


    I think in the end it comes down to how you rate experience in the field vs crazy over the top training. Dick is longer in the field than anybody in the batfamily except Batman, but he never did that "travelling the world to get trained by various masters"-thing Jason did.

    Is Jason as good as Dick, hard to say, but he should be at least far better than he his usually written (especially in Batfamily events).
    Most of Jason's trainers weren't really combatants. it seems they were arsonists, bomb experts, but not really top fighters, and the All-caste, while very cool, deal with mystical threats. Again, very different from hand-to-hand combat.
    As for the league... by now almost everyone in the batfamily fought against the league/ Ra's or Talia and won, so once again, being trained by them is no longer considered as state-of-the-art training.

    While Dick didn't travel the world and seeked different masters, he did actively fought crime since he was 8-12, and led teams of superheroes and fought meta humans since he was a young teen. The amount of experience he has is second only to Batman's and far surpassed him when it comes to teamwork.
    Also, didn't Richard Dragon taghut him?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Dick Grayson's original Robin costume needs to be permanently retconned to something a little less green chainmail bikini with bare legs looking. Just never show that outfit again, even in flashbacks. The only exception is period stories like Justice League The New Frontier.

    Ditto Jason Todd's.

    On a similar note, Batman's whole underwear outside the pants look that some people call trunks needs to go and never make a reappearance. Again with exceptions for stories set in a period setting, basically the 30's through 50's.


    I know that it's an unpopular opinion what with a lot of fans needing the costume that they grew up with never changing with the times, but seriously these costume elements became a joke long before 90% of us were born.


    Hey , I'm sure that I'm older than you and you're absolutely right about these so called "trunks". They need to really go for good, especially for Batman & Superman . It's not 1938 or the 40's or 50's , they change so many things about our Heroes , why not that ?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    Most of Jason's trainers weren't really combatants. it seems they were arsonists, bomb experts, but not really top fighters, and the All-caste, while very cool, deal with mystical threats. Again, very different from hand-to-hand combat.
    In lost days they mention iirc several fighters, but only showed one (the child trafficer) on panel.
    In the new 52 version he was iirc trained by Bronze Tiger, Shiva and iirc Cheshire.
    And the All-Caste uses afaik Martials Arts to deal with Mystical threads.

    Thing is think as with Bruce with whom Jason has trained what, will likely constantly change with each writer, but thing is that this training has happend, and it was pretty substantial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    Also, didn't Richard Dragon taghut him?
    That was a retcon only mentioned in one panel of a Richard Dragon comic, hard to say when that took place in continuity and if that's actually cannon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    While Dick didn't travel the world and seeked different masters, he did actively fought crime since he was 8-12, and led teams of superheroes and fought meta humans since he was a young teen.
    Meta Humans were actually pretty rare untill he became a young adult.

    And if you look at actual comics, Jason had probably at least as much high level thread in his short time as Robin as Dick had (arguably even more, since events weren't really a thing before COIE).

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    In lost days they mention iirc several fighters, but only showed one (the child trafficer) on panel.
    In the new 52 version he was iirc trained by Bronze Tiger, Shiva and iirc Cheshire.
    And the All-Caste uses afaik Martials Arts to deal with Mystical threads.

    Thing is think as with Bruce with whom Jason has trained what, will likely constantly change with each writer, but thing is that this training has happend, and it was pretty substantial.

    That was a retcon only mentioned in one panel of a Richard Dragon comic, hard to say when that took place in continuity and if that's actually cannon.

    Meta Humans were actually pretty rare untill he became a young adult.

    And if you look at actual comics, Jason had probably at least as much high level thread in his short time as Robin as Dick had (arguably even more, since events weren't really a thing before COIE).
    First, as far as I see, the first Teen Titans first in Brave and the Bold 54, back in the sixties, they fought Mr twister who has a magic staff granting him superpowers, so it's definitely more of a threat than a regular thug. And this is literally just the first issue.

    Second, Jason's training with Bruce lasted about two years before he died? He had the shortest tenure as Robin. Then he died, spend a year in a cationic state, and then trained, but it's unclear for how long. Take into consideration that during the new 52 Dick was younger than 21, so the timeline was very skewed. Was his training with them still referenced in Rebirth?
    He's one of the least consistently written batfamily fighters, sometimes losing to Tim.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    Was his training with them still referenced in Rebirth?
    At least the All Caste still came up.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Training by Batman, the All Caste and alls the trainers Talia got for him (a trainig that was said to be similar to the one Bruce went trough before he became Batman).


    The more plausible Version of his origin story has Dick become Robin at 12, around the same age Jason became Robin, and he is at this point likely more 15 years in the field than 20 (assuming pre flashpoint timeline).

    Considering that Catwomans training comes for the most part down to being a street kid in Gotham, and that Jason is usually shown to quite able to handle himself in a fight even before Batman takes him in, I don't really see a big advantage for Dick in this regard.

    Not really.
    Babs original turn as Batgirl was not that long in Universe, she didn't really got much training from Batman or anyone else back than, and was basically semi retired during Jasons time as Robin. She was longer in the wheel chair than Jason dead, their active time in the field should be pretty equal.

    Cass taining stoped when she ran away from David Cain at the age of 9, and she has at best around the same time in the field as he has (and if we go with the post flashpoint timeline she is appart from Duke the least experienced member).

    And Damian and Jason had the same person organise their training, so I guess their training was pretty equal in quality (with the exception of the All Caste Training Jason has).

    I think in the end it comes down to how you rate experience in the field vs crazy over the top training. Dick is longer in the field than anybody in the batfamily except Batman, but he never did that "travelling the world to get trained by various masters"-thing Jason did.

    Is Jason as good as Dick, hard to say, but he should be at least far better than he his usually written (especially in Batfamily events).
    You are assuming a lot. I'm simply looking at what we know for facts.

    - Jason and Selina aren't the same so you can't use Selina's life experiences to construct Jason's unknown past. Selina's skills are a direct result of the lifestyle and things she had to do growing up.

    Jason and Selina have very different lifestyles and skills clearly so there's way you can use Selina's skill level to fill in for Jason.

    That is like saying that Damian, Jason and Cass all had the same training because they were in the LOA environment.

    - Damian and Jason don't have the same training. Yes Talia had a hand in their training but that doesn't mean that they had the same Training, skills or level of training. Damian and Jason don't even have remotely the same skills so not sure how you can use that argument

    Jason doesn't have a PHd
    Can't build a Flying Car
    Can't manage a Multinational
    Can't move his organs by will
    Didn't successfully complete a year of blood
    Cant play the violin
    Didn't take drama lessons
    wasn't trained to be able to defeat Talia Al ghul before age 10

    Not only did they not train to have the same skills they didn't dedicate the same amount of time.
    Saying that Jason had the same training Bruce had means nothing. Skills are perfected over time. training is accomplished over time and Time makes all the difference in skill proficiency and capability.

    Jason just didn't dedicate the time that characters like Bruce, Dick, Damian and Cass did to becoming combatants. He didn't have the time to do that.

    - Comics aren't about possibilities someone being able to move their organs at will, come back to life or punch a hole in reality are all impossible but we believe them as canon just like Dick Grayson becoming Robin at age 8 and taking down men is also canon.

    Aside from all the training look at the when they've gone head to head. the evidence shows that Dick is the better of the two Time and again.

    It's not hard to say lol that's like asking if Tim is as good as Bruce Wayne. Come on man.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-18-2022 at 03:27 AM.

  12. #42
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Hereís one, training and hand to hand combat is overrated. Being a superhero isnít a kung fu tournament.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    First, as far as I see, the first Teen Titans first in Brave and the Bold 54, back in the sixties, they fought Mr twister who has a magic staff granting him superpowers, so it's definitely more of a threat than a regular thug. And this is literally just the first issue.
    Yeah but that happened rarely and he usually didn't fought them in hand to hand combat.

    And if you want to go by feats, Jason defeated Mongul at the age of 12 or 13, that not really representative of the threads he regularly faced but it happend.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    It's likely that most of the characters who don't have a book (with the exception of Tim) probably aren't popular enough to have a book with sustainable sales.
    Since they've never gotten a book or even a one shot all we can do is speculate. Obviously, none of them are going to bring in Batman-sales, and nobody is saying they have to do an on-going for 100 issues.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Since they've never gotten a book or even a one shot all we can do is speculate. Obviously, none of them are going to bring in Batman-sales, and nobody is saying they have to do an on-going for 100 issues.


    Batwoman had a series before, Duke, Clownhunter and Huntress had one shots. Azreal is now part of a book. Who are you referring to that didn't get a chance or one shot?

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