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  1. #46
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being an orphan is still more relatable than being an artificially created construct or reincarnation of multiple dopplegangers from across the multiverse. She's still going to have a lot of sadness and insecurity to overcome, especially if she remembers her original parents.
    People don't have any trouble relating to nightmares where everyone you know thinks you are worthless and unlovable. Even if we create a fantastic reason for where these nightmares come from (and something that makes her more notable as a character)

    Also, we've long moved past the point of Themyscira being a paradise.
    Really? What complaints could Donna have about Paradise Island?

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    What makes Diana relatable is that she had to overcome great sadness and insecurity. Personally, I don't think making her an orphan made her reatable, specially since the rest of her life was spent on a Paradise with wonderful people.
    So many DC characters are orphans. Its done to elicit sympathy for the character and to show them building relationships. Donna may have grown up in Paradise but she is also from Man's World and like many adoptees would have the curiosity to want to know who her biological parents are. Searching for identity, trying to live up to impossible standards and being protective of people she loves are what makes her relatable.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    People don't have any trouble relating to nightmares where everyone you know thinks you are worthless and unlovable. Even if we create a fantastic reason for where these nightmares come from (and something that makes her more notable as a character)
    She doesn't need a fantastical reason to have these feelings is my point.



    Really? What complaints could Donna have about Paradise Island?
    Their isolation, mistrust of the outside world, Doom's Doorway, Amazons mistrustful of outsiders, civil wars and disputes, the list goes on.

    Hell, going by your logic, all of Donna's problems, regardless of their origin, would disappear the moment she sets foot on Themyscira.

  4. #49
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She doesn't need a fantastical reason to have these feelings is my point.





    Their isolation, mistrust of the outside world, Doom's Doorway, Amazons mistrustful of outsiders, civil wars and disputes, the list goes on.

    Hell, going by your logic, all of Donna's problems, regardless of their origin, would disappear the moment she sets foot on Themyscira.
    Nah let's get this right, she lost her parents to a fire when she was young. Then she was taken to a Paradise Island full of women that loved her. Why would the amazons' mistrust of the outside world weight heavy on her? If she's rushing to leave Paradise then can't she just go whenever she wants?

    Did any writer ever suggest that there were disputes or civil wars while Donna was on the Island?

    By my logic an orphan would feel loved and secure if she was taken from the normal world and chosen by Paradise.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    So many DC characters are orphans. Its done to elicit sympathy for the character and to show them building relationships. Donna may have grown up in Paradise but she is also from Man's World and like many adoptees would have the curiosity to want to know who her biological parents are. Searching for identity, trying to live up to impossible standards and being protective of people she loves are what makes her relatable.
    I think those are all the reasons why she stands out less when she is just an orphan.

    And I don't get what's so interesting about the idea of the amazons adopting children while Diana is growing up. It dilutes the story of "The Circle" and how Diana was the child of all the amazons.
    Last edited by Alpha; 01-27-2022 at 03:00 AM.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being an orphan is still more relatable than being an artificially created construct or reincarnation of multiple dopplegangers from across the multiverse. She's still going to have a lot of sadness and insecurity to overcome, especially if she remembers her original parents.
    Yeah, making her someone born as a normal person, who doesn't become super until much later adds a lot of relatability.
    Really? What complaints could Donna have about Paradise Island?
    Well, it's not home to her. It feels like an alien country. Sure it's a nice alien country, with friendly people, but it's still not her home.
    So many DC characters are orphans. Its done to elicit sympathy for the character and to show them building relationships. Donna may have grown up in Paradise but she is also from Man's World and like many adoptees would have the curiosity to want to know who her biological parents are. Searching for identity, trying to live up to impossible standards and being protective of people she loves are what makes her relatable.
    Heh, the orphan thing has been over-used in comics to the point of being boring.
    Grail should be her Mother.
    Hmmm.... That feels like new character territory... GOOD, but new character.
    It seems like the main contention point about her origin is whether one thinks she should come from ordinary roots or from fantastical ones. I lean towards the former as it makes Donna more of a relatable audience pov character into the world of the Amazons.
    I like to mix the mystical with the mundane, that sort of dichotomy is interesting.

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member donnafan's Avatar
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    For Donna's origin, I blame Dark Angel for the silly retcons...

    (The past) Wonder Woman hears the cries of an infant and rushes into the burning building. Diana notices that the flames surround the baby but, do not touch her. Sensing that this baby is special and possibly touched by the gods, she brings the baby to Themyscira. There, the Oracle confirms Diana’s suspicion that the baby is indeed, touched by the gods but, is concerned that this child’s future is shrouded in darkness and hidden from her. Diana leaves the baby, now named Troy, with her mother to be raised by Queen Hippolyta as an Amazon on Themyscira.

    Troy is raised by the Amazons and quickly excels, much like her adopted sister, Diana. She follows in her sister’s footsteps, leaving her island paradise to live in Patriarch’s world where she joins a group of costumed teenaged sidekicks to form the Teen Titans. Years pass, Robin helps Troy discover her birth name, Donna, from a doll in the burnt building where Diana found her years ago.
    Crisis events unfold, the Multiverse is destroyed and renewed. Dark Angel somehow survives the many Crisis events, her desire for revenge against Hippolyta and the Amazons grows with every passing moment. Dark Angel makes several unsuccessful attempts to take out her revenge by wiping Donna Troy from the Multiverse. She is defeated every time; however, after the Final Crisis, Dark Angel seizes her opportunity. It appears with the new 52, that Dark Angel was successful but, wait – the Amazon’s bring Troy back with a spell! A side-effect from the spell is that all memories of Donna being Hippolyta’s daughter are erased. Troy, not her doppelganger Dark Angel, is mistakenly thought to be a tool of the Amazon’s destruction.

    After a visit from her patrons, the Titans of Myth, Troy learns the truth: she is the adopted daughter of Hippolyta who was chosen at birth to be the future champion of the Titan gods. Troy seeks out Dark Angel and they battle once again. Troy triumphs and banishes Dark Angel to Tartarus, the underworld. As a gift, Mnemosyne restores the Amazon’s memories of Troy including Hippolyta and Diana. Sisters once again!

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnafan View Post
    For Donna's origin, I blame Dark Angel for the silly retcons...

    (The past) Wonder Woman hears the cries of an infant and rushes into the burning building. Diana notices that the flames surround the baby but, do not touch her. Sensing that this baby is special and possibly touched by the gods, she brings the baby to Themyscira. There, the Oracle confirms Diana’s suspicion that the baby is indeed, touched by the gods but, is concerned that this child’s future is shrouded in darkness and hidden from her. Diana leaves the baby, now named Troy, with her mother to be raised by Queen Hippolyta as an Amazon on Themyscira.

    Troy is raised by the Amazons and quickly excels, much like her adopted sister, Diana. She follows in her sister’s footsteps, leaving her island paradise to live in Patriarch’s world where she joins a group of costumed teenaged sidekicks to form the Teen Titans. Years pass, Robin helps Troy discover her birth name, Donna, from a doll in the burnt building where Diana found her years ago.
    Crisis events unfold, the Multiverse is destroyed and renewed. Dark Angel somehow survives the many Crisis events, her desire for revenge against Hippolyta and the Amazons grows with every passing moment. Dark Angel makes several unsuccessful attempts to take out her revenge by wiping Donna Troy from the Multiverse. She is defeated every time; however, after the Final Crisis, Dark Angel seizes her opportunity. It appears with the new 52, that Dark Angel was successful but, wait – the Amazon’s bring Troy back with a spell! A side-effect from the spell is that all memories of Donna being Hippolyta’s daughter are erased. Troy, not her doppelganger Dark Angel, is mistakenly thought to be a tool of the Amazon’s destruction.

    After a visit from her patrons, the Titans of Myth, Troy learns the truth: she is the adopted daughter of Hippolyta who was chosen at birth to be the future champion of the Titan gods. Troy seeks out Dark Angel and they battle once again. Troy triumphs and banishes Dark Angel to Tartarus, the underworld. As a gift, Mnemosyne restores the Amazon’s memories of Troy including Hippolyta and Diana. Sisters once again!
    I like this take the best.

    Although given the timeline issues, either Donna has to be much older when Diana rescued her or Diana has to rescue her in a different way. That's why I'm in favor of changing her rescue from a burning building to a ship wreck instead.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Enh... I don't like the Dark Angel stuff. It's very.... specific to a past event. Otherwise that's a good take.

  9. #54
    Fantastic Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    The simple narrative beauty (and emotional resonance) of Donna's orphan-baby-rescued-from-a-fire-by-Wonder-Woman origin will never be topped (certainly not by the increasingly, ridiculously overcomplicated origins that DC kept concocting).

  10. #55
    Incredible Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    The simple narrative beauty (and emotional resonance) of Donna's orphan-baby-rescued-from-a-fire-by-Wonder-Woman origin will never be topped (certainly not by the increasingly, ridiculously overcomplicated origins that DC kept concocting).
    100% agree. I can see a way of filtering the Titans of Myth stuff, if needed, in a cleaner way, that allows for Donna to be their ch ampion and also be an infant on Paradise Island

    ... But everything after that needs to relegated to a dead Earth, especially the mirror twin Dark Angel crap.

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member donnafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonder39 View Post
    100% agree. I can see a way of filtering the Titans of Myth stuff, if needed, in a cleaner way, that allows for Donna to be their ch ampion and also be an infant on Paradise Island

    ... But everything after that needs to relegated to a dead Earth, especially the mirror twin Dark Angel crap.
    Dark Angel is a nice nemesis to Donna Troy and they've had history going back to Byrne's run on WW. Byrne's inclusion of Dark Angel being a doppelganger of Donna's, specifically the Harbinger of the Anti-Monitor gave the character depth and motivation. While overall, I didn't favor Byrne's run and specifically, his reboot and further complication of Donna Troy's origins, I give him credit for bringing Donna back into the WW universe and giving her a worthy adversary.

    Rebooting Donna Troy's origins have been really unsuccessful in the past. Rebooting her origin will just further complicate things. I feel a better approach is to build upon past elements to move the character forward and not be stuck in a origin reboot cycle that makes writers not want to touch her with a 10-foot pole. We need more character-building stories that move her forward instead of revisiting the same story.
    Last edited by donnafan; 02-03-2022 at 09:38 AM.

  12. #57

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    I agree. Best to build up on past elements.

    Dark Angel works well as Donna's nemesis. Especially since Donna's primary conflict is wanting to be perfect and Dark Angel represents her imperfections and the trickster constantly trying to throw her life off of it's tracks.

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnafan View Post
    Dark Angel is a nice nemesis to Donna Troy and they've had history going back to Byrne's run on WW. Byrne's inclusion of Dark Angel being a doppelganger of Donna's, specifically the Harbinger of the Anti-Monitor gave the character depth and motivation. While overall, I didn't favor Byrne's run and specifically, his reboot and further complication of Donna Troy's origins, I give him credit for bringing Donna back into the WW universe and giving her a worthy adversary.

    Rebooting Donna Troy's origins have been really unsuccessful in the past. Rebooting her origin will just further complicate things. I feel a better approach is to build upon past elements to move the character forward and not be stuck in a origin reboot cycle that makes writers not want to touch her with a 10-foot pole. We need more character-building stories that move her forward instead of revisiting the same story.
    As much as Byrne did with Dark Angel that was an interesting story.... much like the Lord Chaos story, it's not something that lends itself to revisiting. It's not fundamentally bad, it just... needs too many things to work.

  14. #59

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    What's there to simplify? She's an evil Donna Troy from another universe who wants to ruin the life of our main one?

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    What's there to simplify? She's an evil Donna Troy from another universe who wants to ruin the life of our main one?
    Enh, I just don't like having alt-U characters used casually. Especially when it's your evil counterpart. I mean, sure, Superman fights Ultraman. But not on a regular basis.

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