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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    Uh...

    In all seriousness, his skill and key to success is that he's supremely normal and knows how to handle talent/relate to people like a human being. He was willing to let Iron Man 2 be, well, terrible, in order to not rock the boat too much. Others would have seen it as the hill to die on, and thus not made it with upper management to continue on. He lasted through the years by letting the smaller issues roll off his back, arguably things he should have cared more about like script problems, but his people skills and chill had tremendous foresight. He didn't alienate anyone for 'art' and lucked out when the franchise endured despite its shortcomings.

    However, he's arguably losing that now by becoming so obsessed with- sorry if this offends people for saying it but for lack of a better term- woke issues and "SJW" representation. It's not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about that these are things he personally thinks should be in the movies that he pushes in a huge way, that have nothing to do with storytelling or art. I'm sure in his mind he thinks he's fighting evil or whatever, but it's the hill he's clearly willing to die on often to the detriment of the films and alienating half of the audience over politics. My point is that he used to have NO hills to die on and let the quality ride for the sake of the bigger picture, and let stupid popcorn movies out the gate to appeal to everyone. We've found his achilles heel, and he can't really see the forrest for the trees anymore- in short it's become to much of his personal vision now, for right or wrong. I would say that I personally have more of a problem with his weird penchant for inserting characters and franchises from his childhood, 70s cosmic Marvel, to the complete exclusion of 90s and sort of 80s properties many people grew up on that defined Marvel, but same difference. He's changed what Marvel was to what he thinks it should be.
    What's the SJW politics in the movies? A movie about an Asian character or a movie that includes gay characters?

    You might want to consider why that offends you because that sounds more like a problem for you (and a small vocal group of people) than most people.

    Not everyone in the US or the world is straight or white or male.
    Last edited by Username taken; 01-12-2022 at 07:00 AM.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    What's the SJW politics in the movies? A movie about an Asian character or a movie that includes gay characters?

    You might want to consider why that offends you because that sounds more like a problem for you (and a small vocal group of people) than most people.

    Not everyone in the US or the world is straight or white or male.
    Hey, at least those people have this going for them, when ever they type "SJW" or "too woke" I know I can ignore just about everything else they have to say. Dog-whistles can sometimes be hard to hear, so I applaud them for just coming right out and saying what they mean.
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  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    He has a point though, look how disappointing Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Shang Chi were. Nobody went to see them and they were universally panned. All that "wokeness" drove people away.
    The all-white, mostly male Avengers was so much better.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    What's the SJW politics in the movies? A movie about an Asian character or a movie that includes gay characters?

    You might want to consider why that offends you because that sounds more like a problem for you (and a small vocal group of people) than most people.

    Not everyone in the US or the world is straight or white or male.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    He has a point though, look how disappointing Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Shang Chi were. Nobody went to see them and they were universally panned. All that "wokeness" drove people away.
    The all-white, mostly male Avengers was so much better.
    You guys sure are fond of dog piling if you think you've interpreted blood in the water, without reading what I'm saying like Mr. Dog Whistle...

    You're misinterpreting my words, *I* do not have a problem with wokeness or "having a POC in the film" like the other gentleman suggested. The fact that you guys get so hypersensitive at the suggestion Feige has a pet cause indicates to me I'm correct in that he's willing to rock the boat now if he feels it's important, which is not what he was doing. And it has led to weakening of the brand and dividing the fanbase, whether you want to call it that or not. I liked Captain Marvel, but anyone who's at least somewhat reasonable would admit it probably was only made becuase they didn't have a strong female character to push like Wonder Woman. But, keep misinterpreting my words because you didn't like "wokeness," as a catch-all, if it makes you happy. Put simply, if Feige was the exact opposite and insisted on his movies only having straight white people, you'd see the point immediately. But flipped it's just seen as how it should be, which maybe it is, but he's still meddling to a degree he didn't before.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    You guys sure are fond of dog piling if you think you've interpreted blood in the water, without reading what I'm saying like Mr. Dog Whistle...

    You're misinterpreting my words, *I* do not have a problem with wokeness or "having a POC in the film" like the other gentleman suggested. The fact that you guys get so hypersensitive at the suggestion Feige has a pet cause indicates to me I'm correct in that he's willing to rock the boat now if he feels it's important, which is not what he was doing. And it has led to weakening of the brand and dividing the fanbase, whether you want to call it that or not. I liked Captain Marvel, but anyone who's at least somewhat reasonable would admit it probably was only made becuase they didn't have a strong female character to push like Wonder Woman. But, keep misinterpreting my words because you didn't like "wokeness," as a catch-all, if it makes you happy. Put simply, if Feige was the exact opposite and insisted on his movies only having straight white people, you'd see the point immediately. But flipped it's just seen as how it should be, which maybe it is, but he's still meddling to a degree he didn't before.
    The difference in your reverse example is that he's not ONLY making films with POC/women. The fact you're even trying to correlate 1 female lead film with the idea of every film being straight, white men kinda speaks for itself as to why folks think it's a dog whistle (not to mention the fact you think them being more diverse is not how Marvel was.) I'm also unsure why you think he's "meddling" more now than he did previously?
    Last edited by 80sbaby; 01-12-2022 at 09:12 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    The difference in your reverse example is that he's not ONLY making films with POC/women. The fact you're even trying to correlate 1 female lead film with the idea of every film being straight, white men kinda speaks for itself as to why folks think it's a dog whistle (not to mention the fact you think them being more diverse is not how Marvel was.) I'm also unsure why you think he's "meddling" more now than he did previously?
    To put it to rest so I don't have to explain myself to everyone incorrectly getting offended, I think it's great to have representation in film. My personal feelings are irrelevant, but what everyone is focusing on to seemingly discredit me. Feige is pushing hard for this, to the detriment of not dividing the fanbase a bit as it clearly has been. That's the only point I'm making, he used to be Mr. "Yeah, whatever, all white people in Avengers, fine" and the movies were universally loved, which built up the brand. He's simply not doing that anymore and it's as ill-founded in terms of his earlier strategy as any kind of "Agenda" would be. I think people can't tell the difference between that if they 100% see it as great. People are disgusted with the Academy Awards for insisting on inclusion, even if it's a step in the right direction, but everyone will agree Oscar is never going to be an ever-green brand anymore. Marvel is headed there, right or wrong.

    And I thought Captain Marvel was great, a top 5 MCU. Should it have been made over a property that never got a big screen treatment based on a character people had heard of, for maximum brand success? Probably not. Some people HATED it. Should there have been more POC in Avengers? Sure. He also should've made sure Iron Man 2 wasn't such a mess with a terrible script and a set-up for Avengers shoved in, but he didn't care there, which is why he's still here.
    Last edited by daredevil1; 01-12-2022 at 09:22 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    To put it to rest so I don't have to explain myself to everyone incorrectly getting offended, I think it's great to have representation in film. My personal feelings are irrelevant, but what everyone is focusing on to seemingly discredit me. Feige is pushing hard for this, to the detriment of not dividing the fanbase a bit as it clearly has been. That's the only point I'm making, he used to be Mr. "Yeah, whatever, all white people in Avengers, fine" and the movies were universally loved, which built up the brand. He's simply not doing that anymore and it's as ill-founded in terms of his earlier strategy as any kind of "Agenda" would be. I think people can't tell the difference between that if they 100% see it as great. People are disgusted with the Academy Awards for insisting on inclusion, even if it's a step in the right direction, but everyone will agree Oscar is never going to be an ever-green brand anymore. Marvel is headed there, right or wrong.

    And I thought Captain Marvel was great, a top 5 MCU. Should it have been made over a property that never got a big screen treatment based on a character people had heard of, for maximum brand success? Probably not. Some people HATED it. Should there have been more POC in Avengers? Sure. He also should've made sure Iron Man 2 wasn't such a mess with a terrible script and a set-up for Avengers shoved in, but he didn't care there, which is why he's still here.
    Yes, some people hated CM but some fans also hated that there were so many straight, white men in the previous installments. CM still made a billion, as did BP and both films were "pushed" by Feige. So I guess I'm not seeing how this could somehow be any more detrimental than keeping only straight, white males was? The truth is there's a very vocal minority of fans who are against any "woke" agenda but they ARE a minority opinion. Most people going to theatres don't care about that and want to see more representation and good films, period.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    And I thought Captain Marvel was great, a top 5 MCU. Should it have been made over a property that never got a big screen treatment based on a character people had heard of, for maximum brand success? Probably not.
    The general public had never heard of Ant-Man, Doctor Strange or the Guardians of the Galaxy when those films were made. Why was it suddenly a problem with Captain Marvel?

    Arguably the only Marvel property that hadn't been touched by the MCU that the general public had any decent knowledge of pre-Captain Marvel were the X-Men and Fantastic Four, and the Fox deal wasn't even finalized until a month after Captain Marvel released so they couldn't have used them even if they wanted to.
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    I'm personally against "woke" pandering and virtue signalling at the expense of good storytelling. I don't think the MCU has really done that. It's not like Disney is introducing CRT and climate change into their stuff, so I don't see what the uproar is all about. I think most reasonable folks are totally okay with "diversity" and "representation", but they want it to be done in a natural and organic way. I do think Scorsese got into Feige's head in a way that surprises me. When Coogler was making that first Black Panther movie, the Academy Awards were probably the LAST thing on his mind. Feige was pretty much focused on making movies that entertained audiences and were fun at that time (not to mention making billions of dollars). But look at what Marvel Studios AND Sony are doing now. They're literally CAMPAIGNING for awards at both the television and movie levels. That means they're starting to make content that appeals to judges at the Emmys and Oscars, and lots of superhero fans aren't gonna enjoy that kind of thing. But ironically, those same judges (in my opinion), are NOT taking the MCU seriously because of the shallow and superficial way they deal with "real world" problems. So Marvel Studios execs aren't really winning with judges AND audiences with their new approach. I would just go back to making fun and entertaining movies.

  10. #40
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    Well if a movie like Avatar can win a bunch of Oscars, so should a superhero movie.
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  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Well if a movie like Avatar can win a bunch of Oscars, so should a superhero movie.
    I'm in the Woody Allen/George C. Scott camp when it comes to the Oscars: Why are movies and the people who take part in them being pitted against each other in a competition? I don't like being judged by people who I don't even know, so I really don't understand why entertainers want to take part in these pretentious and self-indulgent events for that very reason. I feel the same way about the Rock and Roll and Pro Football Hall of Fames as well. In showbiz, the only thing that matters is making $$$ (to me). And in sports (and in politics), the only thing that matters is WINNING (and that kind of winning requires no judges and critics determining the results). At least to me. But you make a valid and legitimate point. If Avatar can win a bunch of Oscars, superhero movies should be treated the same way. My problem is that Marvel Studios execs now seem OBSESSED with getting validation from entertainment industry elites ever since Scorsese and Coppola complained about blockbuster franchises not being "cinema." That's why I HATE this campaigning bullshit. And I'm speaking from the perspective of a HUGE MCU fan.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I'm personally against "woke" pandering and virtue signalling at the expense of good storytelling. I don't think the MCU has really done that. It's not like Disney is introducing CRT and climate change into their stuff, so I don't see what the uproar is all about. I think most reasonable folks are totally okay with "diversity" and "representation", but they want it to be done in a natural and organic way. I do think Scorsese got into Feige's head in a way that surprises me. When Coogler was making that first Black Panther movie, the Academy Awards were probably the LAST thing on his mind. Feige was pretty much focused on making movies that entertained audiences and were fun at that time (not to mention making billions of dollars). But look at what Marvel Studios AND Sony are doing now. They're literally CAMPAIGNING for awards at both the television and movie levels. That means they're starting to make content that appeals to judges at the Emmys and Oscars, and lots of superhero fans aren't gonna enjoy that kind of thing. But ironically, those same judges (in my opinion), are NOT taking the MCU seriously because of the shallow and superficial way they deal with "real world" problems. So Marvel Studios execs aren't really winning with judges AND audiences with their new approach. I would just go back to making fun and entertaining movies.
    They have been "campaigning" for awards for years, that's nothing new, it just didn't grab your attention until now.

    And could you name the MCU movies that are made to appeal to Oscar voters because I fail to see them. Shang-Chi and Black Widow were pretty much within the lines of prior MCU movies, NWH is pure fan service that couldn't be further away from pandering to snobby Oscar voters. Eternals is the only one a case could be made but ironically that still landed better with audiences than with critics so your point remains a moot one.
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  13. #43
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    To put it to rest so I don't have to explain myself to everyone incorrectly getting offended, I think it's great to have representation in film. My personal feelings are irrelevant, but what everyone is focusing on to seemingly discredit me. Feige is pushing hard for this, to the detriment of not dividing the fanbase a bit as it clearly has been. That's the only point I'm making, he used to be Mr. "Yeah, whatever, all white people in Avengers, fine" and the movies were universally loved, which built up the brand. He's simply not doing that anymore and it's as ill-founded in terms of his earlier strategy as any kind of "Agenda" would be. I think people can't tell the difference between that if they 100% see it as great. People are disgusted with the Academy Awards for insisting on inclusion, even if it's a step in the right direction, but everyone will agree Oscar is never going to be an ever-green brand anymore. Marvel is headed there, right or wrong.

    And I thought Captain Marvel was great, a top 5 MCU. Should it have been made over a property that never got a big screen treatment based on a character people had heard of, for maximum brand success? Probably not. Some people HATED it. Should there have been more POC in Avengers? Sure. He also should've made sure Iron Man 2 wasn't such a mess with a terrible script and a set-up for Avengers shoved in, but he didn't care there, which is why he's still here.
    No one here is reacting in an offended way, and there is no division of the fanbase as if you think diversity is something that's being "pushed" then you were never a fan to begin with.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    No one here is reacting in an offended way, and there is no division of the fanbase as if you think diversity is something that's being "pushed" then you were never a fan to begin with.
    No, just smug mockery without understanding my original statements at all, to the point of insisting I dislike diversity "pushed" instead of noting it as Feige's objective interference, so...

    People other than myself have had the last word on it, move on.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    No, just smug mockery without understanding my original statements at all, to the point of insisting I dislike diversity "pushed" instead of noting it as Feige's objective interference, so...

    People other than myself have had the last word on it, move on.
    What did we get wrong. You said he is losing his way by pushing woke or SJW ideas into the movies. We said that is bullshit and the newer movies with diverse heroes are just as good and just as successful as the earlier ones. And that as he expanded the MCU, characters like Black Panther Captain Marvel and Shang Chi make sense. What white male superhero should he have done instead of these so it won't be woke and he didn't "die on that hill"?
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