Is Marvel President Kevin Feige The Greatest Producer That’s Ever Lived?

[WebLurker]

I do agree with the big studios but I have to commend some big studios that can still take risk even with their obsession with money. WB wanted MCU money, they rushed the DCEU, however they did not put all their eggs in that one basket. Joker and The Batman so far still offer more opportunities for auteurs.

Fox was doing the same before the buy out with X-MEN, They were still trying to keep the main series going but offer alternatives that will not tie too closely with the main series and not cost so much in budget. It is worth a laugh that Dark Phoenix cost more than Deadpool and Logan combined. lol

So, when the DCEU and Fox gave their directors creative freedom it was good, but it's bad when Marvel Studios does the exact same thing?

Big Studios like the one Feige runs are just stuck now with no alternative, that is pretty depressing and I am not going to consider the multiverse push as an alternative.

So, when DC does it it's okay, but for Marvel Studios, it doesn't count?

This is true but you can have interesting topics in superhero/comic films. Joker is a great example in the last maybe 5 years, it is a movie about a mentally ill man and still a comic film.

Funny how for you, when Marvel Studios does the same, it doesn't count.

Feige will never produced Joker and he will never encourage his screen writers to think that far, so why should I put him anywhere near somebody like Billy Wilder who in the 1940s made a great movie like The Lost Weekend, which was one of the first movies to ever tackle alcoholism in a serious way as a lone topic.

Wilder did it with the Hayes Code still in place, which just feels insane to me now, when I think about it because the film is just so compelling and it is a plot that can be in any film genre, even comic films,... even Marvel, if you have read the comics. Just show you know the Hayes Code was far more toned down and restricted than todays pg 13 that all Feige films are given. so the reality is that Feige even with more technical freedom 75 years later, is practically limited than many producers in the 1940s -1960s.

"I think we target everything we're doing now for kids and adults. So I think your question is more adult, or R-rated. Other than Deadpool, which has already established itself as a certain genre and a certain rating that we've already said we would not mess with when we start working with Deadpool, which we have, other than that, we've not ever encountered a story or a storyline or a character's journey that a PG-13 or the tone or the ratings that we've been using up to this point has prevented us...We've never been held back by [the PG-13 rating]. If we ever are, then certainly there could be a discussion to be had now that there are other outlets, like Hulu, like Star, but that just hasn't been the case yet. We've been able to tell all the kinds of stories we've wanted to with the tonality and the rating structure that we have now." - Kevin Feige

Funny how the MCU movies put most of their depth into the characters (e.g. both Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals). Seeing complex family relationships (including scaring from childhood abuse) and struggles with beliefs and faith when everything gets upended might not seem as splashy as "big issues," but it's just as legitimate a topic as any (not to mention capable of going to just as dark places as your Snyderverses or whatever edgelord flavor of the week we're talking about). Heck, from an artistic perspective, the Marvel movies should be given credit for what they were designed to do and not be shamed because you wanted something else.

Cards on the table, the more I read your stuff here, the more I think this was never about artistic quality or auteurism, but you just trying to "justify" your MCU hatred by making a "they're bad art" claim. As pointed out before, you praise other studios for doing the kinds of things you slam Marvel Studios for and have never examined the latter's artistry or craftsmanship. If you hate the MCU, that's fine, but at least be consistent in your logic.

[The Kid]

I don't think Cameron needs to rush his films honestly. Dude is a multi-billionaire who's enjoying diving into the bottom of the oceans before making his movies. His box office success has earned him the right to take the time. The fact that people are comparing one man to an entire billion dollar production company itself says a lot.

[Castle]

So, when the DCEU and Fox gave their directors creative freedom it was good, but it's bad when Marvel Studios does the exact same thing?
.

Has Marvel ever given their directors creative freedom like dceu/fox? Phase 1 marvel may be the best showcase but phase 1 marvel now feels like a long time ago.

Funny how for you, when Marvel Studios does the same, it doesn't count.

In reference to one of my first post here. there is Feige and Gunn doing GOTG Movies and there is David Hayman and Alfonso Cauron making Gravity. It is a different ball game. Gravity is ''greater'' than GOTG. Furthermore if GOTG 2 is complex than I dont think even the most intellectual sci-fi writers today will ever be able to 100% explain the ending of a space odyssey after 50 years.

I have deja this before so no need to rethread, but this is the same argument someone once made to me that MASH showed war more violently than Saving Private Ryan. there may be subjective support to that, but there are little objective support to that because in objectivity we dont dwell too much on subtle, metaphors or hidden meanings. we take the grit and the physical writing and story as they come.

"I think we target everything we're doing now for kids and adults. So I think your question is more adult, or R-rated. Other than Deadpool, which has already established itself as a certain genre and a certain rating that we've already said we would not mess with when we start working with Deadpool, which we have, other than that, we've not ever encountered a story or a storyline or a character's journey that a PG-13 or the tone or the ratings that we've been using up to this point has prevented us...We've never been held back by [the PG-13 rating]. If we ever are, then certainly there could be a discussion to be had now that there are other outlets, like Hulu, like Star, but that just hasn't been the case yet. We've been able to tell all the kinds of stories we've wanted to with the tonality and the rating structure that we have now." - Kevin Feige

Funny how the MCU movies put most of their depth into the characters (e.g. both Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals). Seeing complex family relationships (including scaring from childhood abuse) and struggles with beliefs and faith when everything gets upended might not seem as splashy as "big issues," but it's just as legitimate a topic as any (not to mention capable of going to just as dark places as your Snyderverses or whatever edgelord flavor of the week we're talking about). Heck, from an artistic perspective, the Marvel movies should be given credit for what they were designed to do and not be shamed because you wanted something else.

I feel you m misread my take here. You don't need r or pg 13 at times. the lost weekend should be rated U or just pg as that was still Hayes code days, but I know that plot of severe alcoholism abuse can never be in a Feige marvel film as an auteur film topic.

Also Snyder is not a lone counter point to Feige.

Funny how the MCU movies put most of their depth into the characters (e.g. both Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals). Seeing complex family relationships (including scaring from childhood abuse) and struggles with beliefs and faith when everything gets upended might not seem as splashy as "big issues," but it's just as legitimate a topic as any (not to mention capable of going to just as dark places as your Snyderverses or whatever edgelord flavor of the week we're talking about). Heck, from an artistic perspective, the Marvel movies should be given credit for what they were designed to do and not be shamed because you wanted something else.

Cards on the table, the more I read your stuff here, the more I think this was never about artistic quality or auteurism, but you just trying to "justify" your MCU hatred by making a "they're bad art" claim. As pointed out before, you praise other studios for doing the kinds of things you slam Marvel Studios for and have never examined the latter's artistry or craftsmanship. If you hate the MCU, that's fine, but at least be consistent in your logic.

Sigh...this thread is not about comparing feige movies to other feige movies , But comparing Feige to other external people by asking if he is the greatest producer that ever lived. so it should be more like are Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals greater than other movies from past producers? this is where I have been drawing my arguments , comments and conclusion, you are just telling something different, that feige is great.

I already said Feige is great at fulfilling the vision disney has set for marvel but this is a far cry of greatest producer that ever lived which was what was asked.

[Dunkelzahn]

So, when the DCEU and Fox gave their directors creative freedom it was good, but it's bad when Marvel Studios does the exact same thing?



So, when DC does it it's okay, but for Marvel Studios, it doesn't count?



Funny how for you, when Marvel Studios does the same, it doesn't count.



"I think we target everything we're doing now for kids and adults. So I think your question is more adult, or R-rated. Other than Deadpool, which has already established itself as a certain genre and a certain rating that we've already said we would not mess with when we start working with Deadpool, which we have, other than that, we've not ever encountered a story or a storyline or a character's journey that a PG-13 or the tone or the ratings that we've been using up to this point has prevented us...We've never been held back by [the PG-13 rating]. If we ever are, then certainly there could be a discussion to be had now that there are other outlets, like Hulu, like Star, but that just hasn't been the case yet. We've been able to tell all the kinds of stories we've wanted to with the tonality and the rating structure that we have now." - Kevin Feige

Funny how the MCU movies put most of their depth into the characters (e.g. both Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals). Seeing complex family relationships (including scaring from childhood abuse) and struggles with beliefs and faith when everything gets upended might not seem as splashy as "big issues," but it's just as legitimate a topic as any (not to mention capable of going to just as dark places as your Snyderverses or whatever edgelord flavor of the week we're talking about). Heck, from an artistic perspective, the Marvel movies should be given credit for what they were designed to do and not be shamed because you wanted something else.

Cards on the table, the more I read your stuff here, the more I think this was never about artistic quality or auteurism, but you just trying to "justify" your MCU hatred by making a "they're bad art" claim. As pointed out before, you praise other studios for doing the kinds of things you slam Marvel Studios for and have never examined the latter's artistry or craftsmanship. If you hate the MCU, that's fine, but at least be consistent in your logic.

True. I mean the "MCU does not take risks" stuff compared to the DCU. I mean MCU did do a Guardians movie and that was a big risk with people almost wishing for the first MCU Flop. After it was a sucess Warner suddenly took a look at the less known characters. Without Guardians we would have gotten a lot of Batman movies perhaps with a Superman one every other year.

But I must have gotten behind. I thought in Castle's World the directors are just puppets that follow Feige's instructions for a movie. But flaws in his argument are not really a surprise but the norm.

[WebLurker]

Has Marvel ever given their directors creative freedom like dceu/fox? Phase 1 marvel may be the best showcase but phase 1 marvel now feels like a long time ago.

Yeah, we know this for a fact; the directors of the last several films have made it no secret that they were given extensive creative freedom when making their films. As I recall, it was under Ike Perlmutter that there were the most restrictions and after Feige got control that restrictions were lifted.

In reference to one of my first post here. there is Feige and Gunn doing GOTG Movies and there is David Hayman and Alfonso Cauron making Gravity. It is a different ball game. Gravity is ''greater'' than GOTG.

Love Gravity. I'd agree that it was a better film. However, both movies were great because of their character work; they're ultimately human stories and that, IMHO, is what people really latched onto. Gravity's special effects are impressive, but it's the characters that make the story matter (e.g. Ryan Stone needing to find the will to live again and how that ties into the journey to return to Earth). I mean, what the signature scene of the movie? The one with the radio ham.

Look, no matter how you slice it, I'd argue that both Gravity and Guardians of the Galaxy are good in their own way. That's all that really matters. One doesn't need to be the other.

Furthermore if GOTG 2 is complex than I dont think even the most intellectual sci-fi writers today will ever be able to 100% explain the ending of a space odyssey after 50 years.

There are different kinds of complexity; Guardians deals in character and emotional complexity. I think that tends to last longer, but, I'm a writer my trade if not employment, so maybe I see things differently.

I have deja this before so no need to rethread, but this is the same argument someone once made to me that MASH showed war more violently than Saving Private Ryan. there may be subjective support to that, but there are little objective support to that because in objectivity we dont dwell too much on subtle, metaphors or hidden meanings. we take the grit and the physical writing and story as they come.

I don't think MASH was as violent (prime time TV and all that), but it didn't shy away from the horrors of war and the toll it takes on people (I mean, while it made extensive use of humor, it was often filtered through the characters needing to find release from the pressure and stress they were under). Deep and mature storytelling doesn't need graphic violence to make its point.

I feel you m misread my take here. You don't need r or pg 13 at times. the lost weekend should be rated U or just pg as that was still Hayes code days, but I know that plot of severe alcoholism abuse can never be in a Feige marvel film as an auteur film topic.

Which assumes that it needs to be. There are a wider range of stories that can be told.

[QUOTE=Castle;5909170]Also Snyder is not a lone counter point to Feige.

As an example that compares like to like. You could replace with Cameron, if you wanted to. The point still stands.

Sigh...this thread is not about comparing feige movies to other feige movies , But comparing Feige to other external people by asking if he is the greatest producer that ever lived. so it should be more like are Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Black Widow, Eternals greater than other movies from past producers? this is where I have been drawing my arguments , comments and conclusion, you are just telling something different, that feige is great.

What I'm saying is that you're not being consistent in your arguments.

I already said Feige is great at fulfilling the vision disney has set for marvel but this is a far cry of greatest producer that ever lived which was what was asked.

He may not rank. Neither may James Cameron or others. Frankly, I think its an impossible question to answer. However, I think everything should be given a fair shake, which isn't the case here.

[Brian B]

Dune sucked, and Blade Runner 2049 sucked, that is all.

I LOVED Blade Runner 2049. It was almost better than the original, IMO.

Dune was just okay. I know it’s the same source material, but Villeneuve owes SO much to David Lynch’s original. It was almost like watching part of the same movie over again, with different actors.

[Brian B]

Marvel is to busy actually getting things done and into theaters to care.

Cameron should probably start taking notes.

THIS. This, right here. You are very right.

[FFJamie94]

Feige is a very impressive producer, it may be a stretch to say he is the best Producer ever, but I can say, no matter what my opinion of the MCU is, he has managed to do an impressive job of getting Marvel and Sony to play nice and seems to have a love for what he is doing.

We started seeing a lot of franchises try to go the "Cinematic Universe" to little or no avail, the closest being the DCEU and that only really got pushed forward after a few rocky starts.
If we're talking about someone who is able to pull People in and juggle around a TV/Cinematic Universe while now dealing with a multiverse, then yeah, He is doing the best job he can.
If we're looking at Movies as art and not as products to be passed on a conveyer belt, then no, he isn't doing the best job of that.
Very few MCU movies I think will stand the test of time, instead it's more of the novelty that will live on.
I've not seen discussion on over half these movies, and as more gets released, I think we'll start to see more get buried as we move on.

But I don't know that for sure. I certainly think they have more longevity that the Disney Star Wars Movies, I can see People returning to this Universe in 20-30 years time like how we return to the OG Star Wars Movies or Back to the Future etc.

As it stands, he seems like someone with a lot of love for the source material and wants to basically see action figures fight on screen. I have a lot of respect for that and the guy himself. And I'd rather he be in charge of the MCU over some like Ari Avad.

[Castle]

Wait? Marvel Studios is stuck doing Marvel movies? Wha??
.

to be fair, marvel movies are from marvel comics.

Because WandaVision, Loki, F&WS and Hawkeye were the exact same show. No diversity

TV Shows are not movies. additionally did any of these tv shows stray too faraway from the Movie formula style. I can speak for wandavsion since I saw that, and the answer is not so much.

This thread tend to be going of the rales because it is coming off too much as subjectively pro or anti, when it is actually about Feige as the greatest producer of all time. let me give a more direct comment on the thread question by going back to Cameron. Cameron is already knowledgeable that Alita already has bigger leaps than Avatar even if he knew Alita will not come close to Avatar at the box office. I am bringing this up because of the argument that box office gives Feige a big edge.





I dont feel Fiege sees stripped down film making as the main top priority as Cameron which in fairness, should not give him the GOAT honours even if you can argue he makes'' good films''. Feige seems to act more on ''fan instincts and adrenaline rush''. NWH can have a weaker vfx and weaker overall lesser film quality to Spiderman 2002 that Cameron was a big part off, but Feige knows, most wont care as long as he sells the multiverse crossover.

In comparison to this, Cameron is a better producer because he would have cared greatly. he would have wanted to show that a lot about vfx has changed in 20 years between Spiderman 2 and No Way Home. even if Cameron was not the director but has a producer credit , this is what great producers do.

There is only a 10 year gap between Avatar and Alita but Cameron is already very schooled and up to date to how Alita already has more vfx leaps than Avatar. it is just so hard not to give him positive credit here as a producer of films.

[Brian B]

It's hilarious that you constantly claim all the MCU movies are the same, and you to praise Joker which was just The King of Comedy with face paint.

Joaquin and Phillips, De Niro and Scorsese just called. They want their movie back.

(Kidding. Obviously, De Niro was perfectly happy with the Joker movie.)

[Brian B]

Exactly.

Let's not forget that Harlan Ellison successfully sued Orion over the script of Terminator (which Cameron wrote) ripped off his work.

Cameron is a great genre director but he's done precious little original, non-derivative work in his career (maybe the Abyss is the only truly original thing he's done). Same with Villneueve that has really experienced most of his success in genre film making.

A lot of these guys are throwing sour grapes because other guys have experienced massive success in genre film making. Period.


EDIT: The Abyss was also inspired by H.G Wells. I stand corrected.

No one will ever convince me Cameron didn’t steal most of the visuals for Avatar from painter Roger Dean. Cameron could have settled and thrown the guy a bone, but he chose not to do so.

[Username taken]

No one will ever convince me Cameron didn’t steal most of the visuals for Avatar from painter Roger Dean. Cameron could have settled and thrown the guy a bone, but he chose not to do so.

Cameron is well known for his aggressiveness and ill-temper. Not to mention he's quite arrogant too.

He was also very dismissive of the Terminator lawsuit but thankfully Orion pictures settled that.

Seriously, the similarity between Avatar's design and Roger Dean's work is striking. There's no way it's just a simple "coincidence" (i mean look at the "floating islands!")

That's part of the reason I really don't rate Avatar, it's far too derivative a work to be called great. It was great to watch in 3-D but apart from that, there's precious little in it.

[Kirby101]

to be fair, marvel movies are from marvel comics.

Which is a point you seem to miss.

TV Shows are not movies. additionally did any of these tv shows stray too faraway from the Movie formula style. I can speak for wandavsion since I saw that, and the answer is not so much.

I am just leaving this out there. Not only does this ignore the cinematic nature of the Marvel Disney shows, but WHAT??? The superhero show where episodes parodied different TV Sitcoms was the same formula and nothing new? I mean, are gaslighting us?

[Kieran_Frost]

It's not a rivalry, much less a "tense" once. It's just Cameron yelling at clouds. Marvel doesn't care.

Well... yes and no. Marvel ALSO want to get critical praise/artistic praise. It costs money to put films up for Oscars; they aren't doing it for fun. They clearly care a little when their art isn't seen as anything but popcorn.

You say those two, Cameron and Villeneuve, are some kind of artists. All I see are genre directors.

Why can't a director of a specific genre be an artist??? Hitchcock is most certainly an artist, but he stuck to that ONE genre from the second half of his career, and did magnificently.

Their jealousy isn’t likely motivated by art. Ripping off Roger Dean (Cameron) and remaking David Lynch’s biggest flop (Villeneuve) are hardly artistic endeavors.

Oh come on, good sir, COME NOW!!! Why are we calling one of the most famous and influential sci-fi books "a David Lynch biggest flop"? Come on, that's just rude to Frank Herbert

The MCU movies and streaming TV shows have been very impactful on the film industry in a financial way. I don’t know that they have had a positive impact from an artistic perspective. Although, as a Marvel fan, I have enjoyed them.

This whole post I 100% agree with, you summerised it all so beautifully. That is EXACTLY how I feel (though I'm now a little superheroe'd out). Haven't even seen Spiderman yet, because I'm all... meh... I'm not excited by the 7th iteration of an idea on screen (honestly, how Fast and the Furious became so big, I will never understand???). And there's now a Mission Impossible 7??? REALLY? Did anyone keep watching after 4? (and that was arguably 3 too many)

I also had no idea Ridley Scott was critical of MCU movies, too. There again, that’s the pot calling the kettle black. The vast majority, not all, but most of Ridley Scott’s career has been about chasing big box-office bucks. I loved Alien. But it’s just a horror genre classic. It’s not some high-falutin film. He’s done the occasional serious movie, unlike Cameron, such as All the Money in the World or House of Gucci. But this is the guy who made Prometheus and Alien:Covenant, too. Does he really think he is suffering from some wrong somehow, that the audience for House of Gucci isn’t paying attention because of Marvel? Or is he just pissed that Marvel does genre better than him these days? Is it because Alien: Covenant grossed “only” $200+ million, while almost $2.5 BILLION was grossed just between Guardians Vol. 2, Spider-Man: Homecoming and Thor: Ragnorak?

First off, in terms of Sir Ridley Scott, we must mention Blade Runner (1982), Thelma and Louise (1991), the Duelest (1977), Gladiator (2000) (and I love Legend (1985), but I'm in the minority there) and the Martian (2015). Let's not downplay what a colossal giant he is in the world of cinema. Alien and Blade Runner are staples of sci-fi, influencing so many (frankly, if someone hasn't seen them, I don't consider them worth listening to as an aficionado of sci-fi films). Thelma and Louise was a feminist revolution, and Gladiator re-launched the sword n' sandals genre that had fallen into oblivion since the late 70s. I don't know everything he's said about Marvel, I'd probably not agree with a lot. And yes, the last twenty years he's delivered one brilliant film (the Martian) and a hell of a lot of "meh" work, but the man has earned the right to speak. He's a legend of cinema, and will probably be remembered long after all these Marvel directors are gone (sorry but it's true).

And I hate pitting one against the others, when it's so different... the MCU is more than the directors who make each film (that's sort of the problem, actually). But Sir Ridley Scott has his place in history. #fact

[Kieran_Frost]

He kinda struck me as a poor man's George Lucas in that regard, but then, I always thought that Pandora was pretty overrated (reminded me of the various Star Wars worlds, but with only a fraction of the detail and imagination to the design).

Actually those are two great comparrisons. Both are artists, visionaries and world builders. Both... suck at dialogue. And from what I understand, both of them aren't very nice people. I do give Cameron the superior staple over Lucas when it comes to directing, but I feel Lucas gets the edge over Cameron in story.

Just like how Infinity War and Endame were nothing like the Russo's Winter Soldier (a political thriller)? Heck, for that matter, they're nothing like the Guardians of the Galaxy movies (space opera), or the original Captain America (historical war movie), or the Spider-Man films (John Huges-style coming of age), or the Ant-Man films (heist), or Iron Man 3 and Thor: Ragnarok (both of which were made in the distinct styles of their directors), Doctor Strange (fantasy), Black Panther (Shakespearian drama), Captain Marvel ('90s buddy cop), Black Widow (spy thriller), or Eternals (epic). Need I go on?

I mean... errrrr... most of these descriptions are a STRETCH! And that's me being polite. If you think Winter Soldier is a political thriller, my follow up question is what political thrillers have you seen? Space Opera? Guardians of the Galaxy? I mean... no.

Dune sucked, and Blade Runner 2049 sucked, that is all.

I don't think it sucked. Visually it was great, and the over-reaching story good (it's just the entire Jared Leto part that needed cutting). I'd LOVE to see an edit of that film, with that plot taken out. I bet it would be awesome. Thought Ryan Gosling was perfect, but he'll never beat Dekker!

It was still down to choosing between Cameron or Feige filmography as he was the person of topic here. As for other artists, Would I choose Cameron over Alfred Hitchcock, Billy Wilder, Walt Disney, Steven Spielberg or William Wyler? No. Would I choose him over Feige? Yes.

Seconded!

Cameron is a great genre director but he's done precious little original, non-derivative work in his career (maybe the Abyss is the only truly original thing he's done). Same with Villneueve that has really experienced most of his success in genre film making.

A lot of these guys are throwing sour grapes because other guys have experienced massive success in genre film making. Period.

EDIT: The Abyss was also inspired by H.G Wells. I stand corrected.

I think you're being a little harsh. Just five of Cameron's films (Aliens, the Abyss, Terminator 2, Titanic and Avatar) have amassed a total of 40 Oscar nominations, and 21 Oscar wins. Which, to be fair, is more than the entirety of the MCU put together... times two. Times three even? He is not without artistic merit, or critical acclaim for his artistry.

EDIT - I thought I'd check. Turns out Marvel has 19 Oscar noms (11 for best visual effects), 3 wins (oddly NONE for visual effects, which surprised me). So it's more times two, than 3. My mistake.