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  1. #31
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    To each their own. They're two psychopaths and were written as such in their relationship dynamic. There is genuine love there, but it's warped.
    You're talking about a 20+ year old non-canon media adaptation and some of its spin-off comics. Their relationship has never really been portrayed that way in canon.

    I don't find their other depictions very interesting probably in part because I personally don't think Harley is very good character outside of the DCAU (yet she's shoved everywhere).
    Lol why even bother talking about her relationships in comics then?

    Source on them being the most popular queer couple in pop culture right now? They are undeniably popular, but as far as pop culture goes people still think of her with the Joker before Ivy.
    Who else is as big? Cap/Bucky and Holmes/Watson will never move past fangirl ships so Harley & Ivy are the most popular canon queer couple by default.

    Also, how is Joker in the running for a queer relationship? Unless you're talking about his one-sided obsession for Batman.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    You're talking about a 20+ year old non-canon media adaptation and some of its spin-off comics. Their relationship has never really been portrayed that way in canon.
    It was basically the inception of the relationship and what they flashback too as the "classic" version of it. It wasn't really all that different from how it was depicted in Post-Crisis when Harley was first introduced in the comics from what I remember.
    Who else is as big? Cap/Bucky and Holmes/Watson will never move past fangirl ships so Harley & Ivy are the most popular canon queer couple by default.

    Also, how is Joker in the running for a queer relationship? Unless you're talking about his one-sided obsession for Batman.
    They should promote Batwoman's relationship with Montoya more.

  3. #33
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It was basically the inception of the relationship and what they flashback too as the "classic" version of it. It wasn't really all that different from how it was depicted in Post-Crisis when Harley was first introduced in the comics from what I remember.
    I can't remember the specific instances you mentioned but those stories were all Dini too. He's the only one who wrote Ivy's dynamic with Harley that way, probably to gain sympathy for his pet creation as a perpetually hopeless victim of abuse. That doesn't work for Harley's modern characterization anymore either, just as it doesn't for Ivy.

    They should promote Batwoman's relationship with Montoya more.
    There's already a split between the Kate/Maggie and Kate/Renee fans but no way will either reach the popularity of Harley/Ivy where both are hot favorites among cosplayers and fan artists, together as a couple and individually. Even Riverdale had Cheryl Blossom and her girlfriend Toni Topaz dress as Ivy and Harley for Halloween.

  4. #34
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    I can't remember the specific instances you mentioned but those stories were all Dini too. He's the only one who wrote Ivy's dynamic with Harley that way, probably to gain sympathy for his pet creation as a perpetually hopeless victim of abuse. That doesn't work for Harley's modern characterization anymore either, just as it doesn't for Ivy.
    I feel like that's more true for how they depict modern Harley as more of a pure victim with dubious culpability for the crimes and choices she makes depending on the writer than how Dini wrote her. Although I guess Dini also tried to walk her back from being a pure villain, although I don't think that ever factored much into her dynamic with Ivy when they were together in comics like GCS.
    There's already a split between the Kate/Maggie and Kate/Renee fans but no way will either reach the popularity of Harley/Ivy where both are hot favorites among cosplayers and fan artists, together as a couple and individually. Even Riverdale had Cheryl Blossom and her girlfriend Toni Topaz dress as Ivy and Harley for Halloween.
    I think any Kate/Maggie fans have calmed down ever since Maggie left Gotham, unless they're just nostalgic, although Harley and Ivy are more marketable for obvious reasons.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Note that the people keeping them apart or are in favor of it uniquely seem to be hung up on whether one is a hero or a villain and what that means
    Mind you if this was a regular pairing other issues would keep them apart
    They are supposed to be best friends as well some would wreck or ruin a good thing just to get their headcanon back

  6. #36

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    Harley and Ivy being a messy on-and-off couple isn't homophobic, it's in character. They will get back together sooner or later. I don't think either character has a better love interest.
    Last edited by OopsIdiditagain; 01-12-2022 at 07:19 AM.
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  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    You're talking about a 20+ year old non-canon media adaptation and some of its spin-off comics. Their relationship has never really been portrayed that way in canon.



    Lol why even bother talking about her relationships in comics then?



    Who else is as big? Cap/Bucky and Holmes/Watson will never move past fangirl ships so Harley & Ivy are the most popular canon queer couple by default.

    Also, how is Joker in the running for a queer relationship? Unless you're talking about his one-sided obsession for Batman.
    Are we talking about just comics or all pop culture?

    I get the feeling pairings like Marceline and Princess Bubblegum are more well-known than Ivy and Harley.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Harley and Ivy being a messy on-and-off couple isn't homophobic, it's in character. They will get back together sooner or later. I don't think either character has a better love interest.
    ^This^

    From what I've seen it doesn't look like they're even entertaining the idea that this might be a permanent thing for them. It very much feels more like a "break" than a "break up". Definitely not homophobic and definitely not worth all the bullshit that the writer has been put through over it. People are really over here treating it like it's the fiasco with Kate's wedding all over again.

  9. #39
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Harley and Ivy being a messy on-and-off couple isn't homophobic, it's in character. They will get back together sooner or later. I don't think either character has a better love interest.
    If Swamp Thing wasn't technically married...

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    You're talking about a 20+ year old non-canon media adaptation and some of its spin-off comics. Their relationship has never really been portrayed that way in canon.

    "Canon" is kind of a dubious point to bring up considering the mainstream comic canon is consumed by less people than media adaptations are. Also the comic canon changes every other week, so I don't see why that canon should be held up as being more important than another.
    And the media adaptation in question is where both the relationship and Harley herself originated and were defined in a way a lot of iconic characters weren't while still in the hands of their creators. it's not like it's a small side media adaptation either it's one of the biggest milestones of the Bat-universe in other media that still gets viewed. It being old and you not liking it isn't the strongest argument for why it shouldn't count


    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Lol why even bother talking about her relationships in comics then?
    Because people on this site give opinions on characters and relationships they dislike or are neutral to all the time...?


    And I like their dynamic in the DCAU, so I'm going to express an opinion of what I like there (both as characters and as a couple) vs. the impression I get from my dislike of modern comics Harley (everything about her) in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Who else is as big? Cap/Bucky and Holmes/Watson will never move past fangirl ships so Harley & Ivy are the most popular canon queer couple by default.

    Also, how is Joker in the running for a queer relationship? Unless you're talking about his one-sided obsession for Batman.
    Are we narrowing it down to pop culture in general or just the superhero genre? Because you may have a point for the latter, but IDK there might be others that are more popular if we expand the parameters. Especially if we include anime or something.

    And no, I meant that as far as wider pop culture is concerned, I think the casuals still think of the Joker and Harley as a couple before they think of Ivy and Harley even if there is a bigger uptick in noticing the latter than there was before.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 01-12-2022 at 09:22 AM.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    ^This^

    From what I've seen it doesn't look like they're even entertaining the idea that this might be a permanent thing for them. It very much feels more like a "break" than a "break up". Definitely not homophobic and definitely not worth all the bullshit that the writer has been put through over it. People are really over here treating it like it's the fiasco with Kate's wedding all over again.
    This is like when make Bruce and Selina "break up". You know they'll get back together again.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  12. #42
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Don't be ridiculous, they're not homophobic because they broke up Harley and Ivy, they're tired hacks because after 70 years of comics they still rely on cheap soap opera relationship drama and break ups in order to drum up interest. Don't blame bigotry for what's easily pinned on bad writing.

  13. #43
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Don't be ridiculous, they're not homophobic because they broke up Harley and Ivy, they're tired hacks because after 70 years of comics they still rely on cheap soap opera relationship drama and break ups in order to drum up interest. Don't blame bigotry for what's easily pinned on bad writing.
    Or just different character directions...

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Coming back to this; like another post said; if its not Lois and Clark (kind of), don't expect any couple, no matter how popular, to stay together too long. DC either gets cold feet when it comes to long-term romantic relationships, or skims over them.

    The Kate and Maggie one I mentioned earlier (and that was with 2 heroine characters), Jason Todd and Artemis Grace in Red Hood and the Outlaws was actually pretty well received, King ruined Bat-Cat for a lot of people, Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor were back in Rebirth, only to break them up later on....

    Harley and Ivy having a "break" is just more par for the course. Granted, I'm kind of over Harley, as she's someone that has killed innocents without receiving due justice, but still.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Not with the way they're pushing Kaldur as Aquaman! I doubt it.

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