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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Default Is DC homophobic for breaking up Harley and Ivy?

    One time is fine
    Two times is a bit cliche
    Three times is officially extreme
    All over the course of 5 years

    Normally I find comic book relationships to be pointless every new writer will have his preferred pairing and choose to pair said main character with whoever they want and then the next writer comes in and status quo reasserts itself spin cycle repeat rinse forever

    But in this case I see the clear times DC has put their thumbs on the scale and either forced a hetero lens on harley and ivy or broke up their relationship for no discernable reason right after they got together

    To me forcing artists to redraw pages of them kissing is homophobic
    This was allowed to happen a couple times over the years I can't post the examples on my phone but there are numerous articles on bleeding cool attesting to this practice
    Is there something bad about two women kissing?

    Then you have the constant state of Harley and Ivy suddenly being incompatible because they lead different lives? to me this smacks as another I'll thought out editorial mess from DC

    Ivy is a villain or anti hero fine that should have no impact on her relationship with Harley
    Harleys status never seems to matter
    Classic artificial roadblock and its become more and more apparent as this has become the go to method for breaking them up

    Imo this is another instance of DC putting their thumbs on the scale

    To me the root cause of all of this is DC is tacitly aware of how popular Harley and Joker are as a couple even as abusive and toxic as that relationship is they are still controlling Harley and by extension Ivy not being seen as a couple.
    A hetero Harley and Ivy are more marketable

    A decision that is primarily based on the bottom line

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    So, this is what rankles you and not, say, Kate Kane and Maggie Sayer getting stonewalled from being married?

  3. #3
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    So, this is what rankles you and not, say, Kate Kane and Maggie Sayer getting stonewalled from being married?
    yup; this was disgraceful when it happened.

    I never got over this and it really soured the Batwoman character for me afterwards.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    So, this is what rankles you and not, say, Kate Kane and Maggie Sayer getting stonewalled from being married?
    Not the same thing

    They aren't forcing Kate to be hetero
    DC did the same to Bruce and Selina mind you

    They don't want characters to get married because it will only end one way

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    No. They break up couples left and right just the same.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    No. They break up couples left and right just the same.
    Yep, show me a couple that stays together I'll show you a couple that is about to break up.

  7. #7
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Maybe it's because I'm not as invested in the relationship so it doesn't really bother me that much, but I've never bought into the relationship as a paragon of triumphant queer love that enriches both characters.

    I'm fine with them as criminal partners and girlfriends, but I don't see the relationship as an absolute thing.

  8. #8
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    Straight couples break up and get back together all the time in comics
    Is it any different here
    The bat and cat are on and off all the time

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Not the same thing

    They aren't forcing Kate to be hetero
    DC did the same to Bruce and Selina mind you

    They don't want characters to get married because it will only end one way
    They aren't forcing Harley and Ivy to be hetero either. They're bisexual, if they're shown on panel getting romantic/sexual with a male character it wouldn't make them less bisexual.

    As for your original question, I don't believe DC are being homophobic. Relationships in comics are seldom stable, I imagine they're just rocking the boat because drama sells.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Is it true that comic book characters break up all the time? Yes. But there are also plenty of examples where comic book characters are allowed to stay in a relation for a time, or have a chance to explore their relation, or get together as a couple—even if only for a run or two.

    That's the first pattern of homophobia within DC, that Harley and Ivy are never allowed even that much within the mainline stories. Meanwhile many of the elseworlds stories are leaning heavily into them as two characters who belong together, or like the Harley Quinn TV series which is making their relation into a centerpiece of the show.

    The second pattern of homophobia is that there is no alternative love interests for either of them who fit them being queer. Batman might not be with Catwoman all the time, but then Talia or Vicki Vale turns up. But with Harley it's straight back to the Joker, or she's shown pining for Batman. Ivy gets reverted to an evil seducer of men.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #11
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    This might be controversial, but i think this is along the lines of something that has become common. That diversity should afford characters protection or immunity from industry and drama norms. As has been said before, DC breaks up relationships all the time. Its a weapon of drama. They don't have other gay relationships or love interests. Well they don't have many other relationships or love interests in general anymore. The point is that it is Harley or Ivy respectively, not just anyone. At best one can try to claim DC is insensitive, but to claim homophobic is just hyperbolic click bait.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-10-2022 at 04:33 AM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm not as invested in the relationship so it doesn't really bother me that much, but I've never bought into the relationship as a paragon of triumphant queer love that enriches both characters.

    I'm fine with them as criminal partners and girlfriends, but I don't see the relationship as an absolute thing.
    I agree with this.
    That DC has decided to push these two villains as their main female LGBT+ representation bothers me more than whether they are together or not.
    Batwoman deserves the top spot without a doubt (and I don't even like her). And Wonder Woman is long overdue for having her bisexuality explored in a meaningful way. The fact that Harley and Ivy get so much spotlight at their expense feels insulting, IMO.
    Slava Ukraini!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The second pattern of homophobia is that there is no alternative love interests for either of them who fit them being queer. Batman might not be with Catwoman all the time, but then Talia or Vicki Vale turns up. But with Harley it's straight back to the Joker, or she's shown pining for Batman. Ivy gets reverted to an evil seducer of men.
    Maybe I missed something but afaik Harley is not back to the Joker, and she got actually replaced in that function by Punchline.

    And Ivy seducing men is kind of her standard M.O. to commit crimes (and has not really anything to do with her being sexually interested in them), and I'm not sure when she actually did that the last time.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Is it true that comic book characters break up all the time? Yes. But there are also plenty of examples where comic book characters are allowed to stay in a relation for a time, or have a chance to explore their relation, or get together as a couple—even if only for a run or two.

    That's the first pattern of homophobia within DC, that Harley and Ivy are never allowed even that much within the mainline stories. Meanwhile many of the elseworlds stories are leaning heavily into them as two characters who belong together, or like the Harley Quinn TV series which is making their relation into a centerpiece of the show.

    The second pattern of homophobia is that there is no alternative love interests for either of them who fit them being queer. Batman might not be with Catwoman all the time, but then Talia or Vicki Vale turns up. But with Harley it's straight back to the Joker, or she's shown pining for Batman. Ivy gets reverted to an evil seducer of men.
    Speaking to this there has never really been a period in mainline canon where either character has been with the other in a relationship for any more than a single issue at that. The people saying they don't see the issue is that the couple is given no oxygen to even be a couple.
    I even catch myself questioning why they should be together like the people claiming Harley and Ivy have become too connected to each other. If anything ever since Harley has broken up with the Joker DC has turned her relationship with Ivy into just as much of a dysfunctional pairing with the breakups and makeups



    You can say other characters break up all the time in comics but they are at least given a bit more respect
    Harley and Ivy shouldn't be short changed like this because they aren't getting into relationships with other characters to compensate. They just keep doing this odd tactic of erasure

  15. #15
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Usually I would have annoyed me but this time I think they are trying to flesh out Ivy as her own character in a standalone title. Of course, breaking her up with Harley wasn't necessary for that but I think they want to focus on some new relationships for her like in her previous mini.

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