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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post

    To be fair, one thing you said wasn't an opinion -- you claimed there was "near-consensus" about Slott.
    I never made that claim.

    My comment is that opinion is always "according to you." Even yours and charliehustle, who also seems to be under the misapprehension I was the original poster and perhaps should take his own advice. Claiming there is near-consensus is, yes, an opinion. An opinion that isn't mine, mind you, because there is no mechanism to survey every single reader. I would say, however, there are plenty of corners of the internet who disliked Slott's take on Spider-Man and this board tended to be more friendly to him than other places during his run.

    Plus, didn't the title sell really well while he was the writer? I know Spidey always sells pretty well anyway, but wasn't he often like the #1 comic of the month?
    Sales, Slott's own favorite argument!

    Then David Michelinie must be the GOAT, as ASM was the #1 comic for a long stretch at a time when comics sales were much, much stronger.

    All I know is this: some of you younger pups are lucky you weren't around when John Byrne relaunched the Spidey books! He literally wrote a couple of issues simply to shut up fans about a storyline we wanted to see explained that he had no interest in (i.e. the 5th Green Goblin). He was the worst.
    I was around for Chapter One and the relaunch. I wonder if Slott got the idea for Silk and inappropriate sexual tension with Peter from Byrne's depiction of Mattie Franklin? I was around for the original clone saga, which IMO deserved all the stones thrown at it at the time. It's fun to see how nostalgia changes people's lens.

    Slott's story execution still sucks, IMO. There can be more than one bad run, y'know.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 01-13-2022 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Any writer, if they genuinely have something new to say about the character, should have the chance to write.

    So, sure. If Dan had another story in him that simply blew away all competition to write Spidey, then yeah.

  3. #78
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    I never made that claim.

    My comment is that opinion is always "according to you." Even yours and charliehustle, who also seems to be under the misapprehension I was the original poster and perhaps should take his own advice. Claiming there is near-consensus is, yes, an opinion. An opinion that isn't mine, mind you, because there is no mechanism to survey every single reader. I would say, however, there are plenty of corners of the internet who disliked Slott's take on Spider-Man and this board tended to be more friendly to him than other places during his run.



    Sales, Slott's own favorite argument!

    Then David Michelinie must be the GOAT, as ASM was the #1 comic for a long stretch at a time when comics sales were much, much stronger.



    I was around for Chapter One and the relaunch. I wonder if Slott got the idea for Silk and inappropriate sexual tension with Peter from Byrne's depiction of Mattie Franklin? I was around for the original clone saga, which IMO deserved all the stones thrown at it at the time. It's fun to see how nostalgia changes people's lens.

    Slott's story execution still sucks, IMO. There can be more than one bad run, y'know.
    again read slower.

    read the comment I was originally responding to.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    This. I actually loved everything he wrote, up until Superior Spider-Man ended with a dud. It was downhill from there, and that's when he started feeling like he didn't love Spider-Man as much as he proclaimed and instead was just bored with him (the PETER aspect of Spidey in particular) and was just checking off boxes on a "To Do" before he moved on to his next project.
    "I didn't enjoy reading it, therefore the writer didn't enjoy writing it" is a fallacy.

    There's a toxicity that pervades forums like this one, where instead of criticising the work, people will cast aspersions upon the creative team and their motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Claiming there is near-consensus is, yes, an opinion.
    No it isn't. A consensus, or near-consensus, is based on numbers. If there are 100 people on a council and 98 of them vote a certain way on an issue, then that is a near-consensus.

    "The Godfather Part II is a terrible film" is an opinion, which is valid.

    "There's a near-consensus that The Godfather Part II is a terrible film" is not an opinion. It's a statement that needs to be backed up with data.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    "I didn't enjoy reading it, therefore the writer didn't enjoy writing it" is a fallacy.
    I love how you cut half of my comment off to try to make your own point and try to make yourself look smart; you cut out the part where I pointed out that he basically started using ASM as an Iron Man try-out book, which was all anyone with half a brain needed to see from Slott to know that he was already over Peter/Spider-Man at that point.
    Last edited by Uncanny Mutie; 01-14-2022 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Spelling error

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    I love how you cut half of my comment off to try to make your own point and try to make yourself look smart; you cut out the part where I pointed out that he basically starting using ASM as an Iron Man try-out book, which was all anyone with half a brain needed to see from Slott to know that he was already over Peter/Spider-Man at that point.
    Absolutely

    And Slott has the habit of blocking anyone who criticizes or even likes a post criticizing him or even disagreeing w/ him.So on his page it feels as if people love his run because he's took out all the people who might disagree.

    Also in the 616 show thing we found out how terrible he is in his work ethic

    And he himself has stated he's too old to write ASM "it's a young writers game" and acknowleged that he saw fear by lots he was the next writer after Spencer.

  7. #82
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    I'm sorry I ever brought up the near consensus thing, you guys are nitpicking it to death to invalidate every other argument made... but leave TinkerSpider alone, he's having to defend himself against three people because someone mistakenly attributed what I said to him and haven't corrected it.

    Honestly, if some like to perseverate on one thing that is perhaps phrased incorrectly to ignore an argument, you do you. But it's something I've never personally been interested in and think is kind of weak, a grasping at straws to 'win' at any cost by not having to address the body of an argument you're unable to pick apart. If I say it's pretty objective he's a bad writer and that's all you want to talk about, it's a colossal waste of everyone's time... submit his writing to 100 literary academics and see how well it gets appraised. That's my barometer more than "Hey he wasn't that bad, his ideas were good and it sold well!" Any argument whatsoever is an individual's opinion, that's kind of obvious.

  8. #83
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    Just for the record, Slotts sales numbers on Spider-man (particularly after Superior) weíre pretty huge. Commercially he was very successful on the book. All the sales estimates are on Comichron. Marvel would never give a writer a title for that period of time if he wasnít doing something very, very right because itís ultimately all about sales.

    So no, Dan Slott didnít run the franchise into the ground. If anything it was the exact opposite.

    Thereís a lot of toxicity around Slott and it was actually really bad at a time (I believe he got doxxed at a time and got death threats) particularly around the time Superior launched. I believe that was before the forum reboot but Slott actually used to post on these forums until some really toxic folks lost their damn minds.

    That being said, I think Slott had enough time to tell all the stories he wanted to tell. A decade is a very long time and I donít think thereís any real need for him to return to the book. However, if he has a good story he wants to tell and itís something that editorial allows, then he should go for it. Every writer should be allowed to tell the stories they want to tell if it aligns with Marvelís vision.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    Any writer, if they genuinely have something new to say about the character, should have the chance to write.

    So, sure. If Dan had another story in him that simply blew away all competition to write Spidey, then yeah.
    My thinking too.

    If he has a good story he wants to tell, then he should be allowed to tell it.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    I love how you cut half of my comment off to try to make your own point and try to make yourself look smart; you cut out the part where I pointed out that he basically starting using ASM as an Iron Man try-out book, which was all anyone with half a brain needed to see from Slott to know that he was already over Peter/Spider-Man at that point.
    Unless you can back up your claims (that Slott used Amazing Spider-Man as an audition for Iron Man, and doesn't love Spider-Man as much as he said he did) with a statement from Dan Slott, then this is ascribing motives. Casting aspersions on the creative team, rather than talking about the work itself.

  11. #86
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    The idea Slott actually wanted to write Iron Man instead of Spider-Man seems fairly ridiculous to me. I can understand the idea that "Parker Industries was too much like Iron Man" but Slott is clearly a huge fan of Spider-Man and this also ignores how little of Parker Industries was part of Slott's run. This also ignores how much was setup for Parker Industries and how many of us like the idea of Peter using his scientific progress to succeed in an amazing way.

  12. #87
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    It's possible to disagree with another poster's evaluation of a comic or comic creator without being nasty.

    Opinions are opinions. You can think Slott is bad all you want, and you can point to other people who hold the same opinion: but that's all it is -- opinion. Slott's work is not objectively or definitely bad no matter how strongly you feel it is, because that is simply not how analysis of art and literature works. Similarly, I would never claim that Slott's work is objectively good just because I tend to like his output. I can point to evidence that suggests he was successful as a Spider-Man writer, but that evidence does not invalidate the fact that some people very much dislike his work. And yes, you can point to things like continuity, or character progression, or successful use of genre tropes -- all these things add evidence/credence to why a particular person has evaluated a comic the way he or she has -- but another person can look at all that, and is still allowed to say, "Yknow, I still liked it."

    Frankly, as a community I believe we should be more willing to consider why another person feels differently about a comic rather than digging in our heels about our own perspectives. My mind is sometimes boggled by how negatively some folks seem to feel about the comics they read, but it's not my business to try to convince you that your opinion is wrong (one, because there's no such thing as a wrong opinion, but the very definition of opinions) -- whereas, instead, all I ever hope to do is explain my own thinking about an issue or writer, just to provide another perspective.

    Each of our individual perspectives is not the enemy of another's perspective.

    Also, FWIW, I don't think it's particularly helpful try ascribe motive to someone else when it's impossible to actually know that motive. It's weird to me how many people make claims about Slott's thinking, why he wrote a story a certain way, etc. -- because honestly, unless there's evidence from an interview or something similar, I can't imagine anyone here knows why Slott made the choices he did, and to pretend to know isn't intellectually honest.

    Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes!

    -Pav, who appreciates literary discussion but doesn't care for rudeness or in-fighting...
    Last edited by Pav; 01-14-2022 at 05:53 PM.
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.

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  13. #88
    Spectacular Member Reilly's Avatar
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    I don't want Slott back to Spider-Man comics again after what he did to BEN and PETER but I have to say... With all the aversion of mine for Slott, I do like the Superior Spider-Man. And I have soft spot for the Spider-Verse.

  14. #89
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Also, FWIW, I don't think it's particularly helpful try ascribe motive to someone else when it's impossible to actually know that motive. It's weird to me how many people make claims about Slott's thinking, why he wrote a story a certain way, etc. -- because honestly, unless there's evidence from an interview or something similar, I can't imagine anyone here knows why Slott made the choices he did, and to pretend to know isn't intellectually honest.
    Pav is totally correct here because this is the type of stuff that will get this forum NUKED again.

    We are fans of genre that mostly deals with people wearing spandex and people shooting lazers that go "pew pew" when we start saying, "X writer thought this" or "X writer got tired of writing character Y" you are talking out of your ass because you do NOT know what is going on in a writer's head.

    If you don't like Slott that's fine, but don't say "all fans" dislike him or "he wrote the character into the ground"

    Nevertheless, this is wayy off topic and has completely derailed the thread.

    Pav, party on bruv

  15. #90
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    I'm going to say no; I liked very little of Slott's work (I honestly don't think he's that good a writer in the first place and found his vision of Spider-Man to disregard a lot of what I liked about the character). I also agree that after ten years, he had a good run and had more than a fair chance to say everything he wanted to say.

    (In regards to the controversy over Slott on the forum in the past, I agree with leaving that in the past; while, as noted, I don't think he was a good choice for Spider-Man in general, the sheer toxicity over it all got really old and overblown. As rude as I found Slott to be on the forums, I think he was pretty unfairly treated in general just because he write stuff that certain people wanted him to.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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