Green Lantern Corps Appreciation 2022

[j9ac9k]

Guy was also selected for proximity. When Abin crashed, Hal was closest and Guy was second closest. Since Abin crashed near Coast City and Hal continued to live there, Guy remained the closest proximate potential recruit until his coma. The point of introducing Guy as a concept was to show that there was someone out there equally qualified who only lost out because he was further away. In other words, while HJ was supposed to be impressive, he wasn't so singular as to be more than human, like say Superman. Before the retcons, John was next closest in terms of qualification and proximity. When Abin first crashlanded though, he was too young to qualify for the ring. John being pre-selected is a retcon.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of events and of the lore.
-- Hal and Guy were the only two equally worthy at the time of Abin Sur's crash. And yes, I think at the time,(before the Guy retcon) Hal was meant to be "singularly worthy" - the best of humanity. Hal was selected for being closer than Guy, but that's it. Guy was then the backup, because he was the only other one worthy at the time. John wasn't "third closest" - being too young was their way of not saying he was less than Hal and Guy.
-- John was chosen as Hal's backup because Guy was in a coma and out of commission. So that's what I mean by he was pre-selected. That's not a retcon, that's how he was introduced. He was third most worthy (or equally worthy) I suppose, but anyone on earth worthy enough could have been chosen to be Hal's backup at that time - it wasn't an emergency and proximity had nothing to do with it.

As for the rest of it, it then depends. We are shown that backups were chosen ahead of time (which has nothing to do with proximity) although the comics have been inconsistent about this kind of thing, especially when they show the rings go in search for a worthy replacement when a GL dies instead of flying off to the pre-selected replacement. That's not a concept that was done a lot after Guy and John were introduced. It also depends on how rare you think it is to find a "worthy" replacement. It was seen to be much rarer originally, but I think people don't like the idea that there are only one or two on earth worthy - as the glut of current GLs has shown.

[j9ac9k]

On a completely unrelated topic, images from JL #75 have been popping up and it appears all the earth Lanterns are exactly as they were before the current series started. (I didn't notice Jo though) So, all the stuff with John and the battery dying etc.. leads to nothing? Guess we'll see, but nothing seems different about any of them, unless they faked some images to prevent spoilers.

[Frontier]

On a completely unrelated topic, images from JL #75 have been popping up and it appears all the earth Lanterns are exactly as they were before the current series started. (I didn't notice Jo though) So, all the stuff with John and the battery dying etc.. leads to nothing? Guess we'll see, but nothing seems different about any of them, unless they faked some images to prevent spoilers.

Is that a cover or is that actual in-issue art?

Not that artists haven't had trouble keeping things consistent before.

[SecretWarrior]

I have to disagree with your interpretation of events and of the lore.
-- Hal and Guy were the only two equally worthy at the time of Abin Sur's crash. And yes, I think at the time,(before the Guy retcon) Hal was meant to be "singularly worthy" - the best of humanity. Hal was selected for being closer than Guy, but that's it. Guy was then the backup, because he was the only other one worthy at the time. John wasn't "third closest" - being too young was their way of not saying he was less than Hal and Guy.
-- John was chosen as Hal's backup because Guy was in a coma and out of commission. So that's what I mean by he was pre-selected. That's not a retcon, that's how he was introduced. He was third most worthy (or equally worthy) I suppose, but anyone on earth worthy enough could have been chosen to be Hal's backup at that time - it wasn't an emergency and proximity had nothing to do with it.

As for the rest of it, it then depends. We are shown that backups were chosen ahead of time (which has nothing to do with proximity) although the comics have been inconsistent about this kind of thing, especially when they show the rings go in search for a worthy replacement when a GL dies instead of flying off to the pre-selected replacement. That's not a concept that was done a lot after Guy and John were introduced. It also depends on how rare you think it is to find a "worthy" replacement. It was seen to be much rarer originally, but I think people don't like the idea that there are only one or two on earth worthy - as the glut of current GLs has shown.

There's a difference between a retcon and a reveal. It wasn't a retcon that Guy was equally worthy and was only beat out because he was further away.

John was too young to be a GL, so he wasn't even considered at the time of Abin's passing. That's not to say his willpower wasn't up to scruff. He just wasn't a legal choice in the eyes of the Corps.

Some re-tellings apparently indicate that both Batman and Superman were also qualified, but were too far away from the crash site.

Pre-Selected means to select in advance. Neither Guy nor John was "pre-selected" by the Guardians when they were first introduced. The Guardians just knew that they were the most likely to be selected if HJ fell. If some other qualified candidate moved closer to Coast City, that person could have upset the calculus.

The ring doesn't select the best in the entire sector. It finds someone who is sufficiently qualified and proximate, explaining the variations in talent among GLs and accounting for the subjectiveness of "willpower." Enough with the wank here.

HJ is not a biologically different breed, so he can't deviate that far from the norm.

The scan above clearly shows what I'm talking about.

[SecretWarrior]

Also, even when John was later retconned in Mosaic to have been pre-selected because of the Tower of Talo prophecy, that pre-selection was pretty much unheard of and a testament to how uniquely important John would be to the Corps.

[SecretWarrior]

[SecretWarrior]

[j9ac9k]

There's a difference between a retcon and a reveal. It wasn't a retcon that Guy was equally worthy and was only beat out because he was further away.

John was too young to be a GL, so he wasn't even considered at the time of Abin's passing. That's not to say his willpower wasn't up to scruff. He just wasn't a legal choice in the eyes of the Corps.

Some re-tellings apparently indicate that both Batman and Superman were also qualified, but were too far away from the crash site.

Pre-Selected means to select in advance. Neither Guy nor John was "pre-selected" by the Guardians when they were first introduced. The Guardians just knew that they were the most likely to be selected if HJ fell. If some other qualified candidate moved closer to Coast City, that person could have upset the calculus.

The ring doesn't select the best in the entire sector. It finds someone who is sufficiently qualified and proximate, explaining the variations in talent among GLs and accounting for the subjectiveness of "willpower." Enough with the wank here.

HJ is not a biologically different breed, so he can't deviate that far from the norm.

The scan above clearly shows what I'm talking about.

What do you see as the difference between "retcon" and "reveal?" Just because it doesn't outright contradict something that was established doesn't mean it's not a retcon ... if that's the distinction you're making. To me, if something was added in later about something we've already seen,(Hal's selection) it's a retcon. Maybe we disagree about the term, but that's neither here nor there. There was a story where Superman actually was chosen first, but he declined and suggested Hal from a number of other qualified candidates around the world (including Nightwing I think) - that was a retcon, even though it supposedly happened right before Sur selected Hal.

I don't see what you think the scan is meant to show. You and I are going to have to disagree about what "pre-selected" meant because I don't see your point about how they weren't. They were deemed worthy and chosen to be Hal's backups before they became official GLs and got a ring - how is that not being "pre-selected?" And we will just have to disagree that if "someone just as worthy moved closer to Coast City", they would have been selected. John was the official backup and as long as he was able, he would have been selected - not some rando who was closer. Again, proximity wasn't important because they had all the time in the world to chose a backup and back then, the ring was presented as much more selective. I think we just disagree on this and we're going to just go back and forth, repeating ourselves.

You and I are also going to have to disagree about how selective the process is. I think you're going by the more modern version where it's less selective than originally presented. And I'm not saying it scans a whole sector - the original discussion was about why there are so many American GLs. Back then, Hal was chosen above all other earthlings.(and no, it wasn't about biology, it was about character) Then they added Guy as just as worthy, but Hal as closer. Now, it seems anyone is worthy if they're just a good person.

[SecretWarrior]

What do you see as the difference between "retcon" and "reveal?" Just because it doesn't outright contradict something that was established doesn't mean it's not a retcon ... if that's the distinction you're making. To me, if something was added in later about something we've already seen,(Hal's selection) it's a retcon. Maybe we disagree about the term, but that's neither here nor there. There was a story where Superman actually was chosen first, but he declined and suggested Hal from a number of other qualified candidates around the world (including Nightwing I think) - that was a retcon, even though it supposedly happened right before Sur selected Hal.

I don't see what you think the scan is meant to show. You and I are going to have to disagree about what "pre-selected" meant because I don't see your point about how they weren't. They were deemed worthy and chosen to be Hal's backups before they became official GLs and got a ring - how is that not being "pre-selected?" And we will just have to disagree that if "someone just as worthy moved closer to Coast City", they would have been selected. John was the official backup and as long as he was able, he would have been selected - not some rando who was closer. Again, proximity wasn't important because they had all the time in the world to chose a backup and back then, the ring was presented as much more selective. I think we just disagree on this and we're going to just go back and forth, repeating ourselves.

You and I are also going to have to disagree about how selective the process is. I think you're going by the more modern version where it's less selective than originally presented. And I'm not saying it scans a whole sector - the original discussion was about why there are so many American GLs. Back then, Hal was chosen above all other earthlings.(and no, it wasn't about biology, it was about character) Then they added Guy as just as worthy, but Hal as closer. Now, it seems anyone is worthy if they're just a good person.

A reveal does not contradict what came before like a retcon. It just shows a different side of the story that wasn’t previously relevant, like a parallel plot line.

Preselection as you use it sounds like the choice is inevitable, regardless of qualification or as if someone more qualified will be passed over because a preselection created a seniority list. The Guardians didn’t select someone just to have a body ready. Based on the facts they had, they just knew what was most likely to happen. Originally they thought Guy was most likely but the math changed when he got hit by a bus. Prior to that, he didn’t even know he was the backup, equally qualified candidate. He had no notice that he might be called up to serve, so GL backup is not an official or set position.

Preselected is not a guarantee of who will be chosen. If so, who was Abin’s preselected replacement? Also, if it were a guaranteed position, the calculus of who is chosen would never change, which it did when Guy went into a coma.

Guy showed that an everyday gym teacher could be inwardly exceptional enough to be a GL and that just as important as will power is: “Location, location, location.” It adds an Everyman quality to the franchise. You find a way to step up when destiny calls. That’s a noble lesson applicable to everyone.

[Frontier]

Preselected is not a guarantee of who will be chosen. If so, who was Abin’s preselected replacement? Also, if it were a guaranteed position, the calculus of who is chosen would never change, which it did when Guy went into a coma.

Probably somebody from his home planet, I'd guess. Like it was kind of a shock that somebody from Earth ended up inheriting his ring, and his son didn't take it well.

Guy showed that an everyday gym teacher could be inwardly exceptional enough to be a GL and that just as important as will power is: “Location, location, location.” It adds an Everyman quality to the franchise. You find a way to step up when destiny calls. That’s a noble lesson applicable to everyone.

In as far as people who hold great will and can overcome fear are "everyman's." Not everyone has the capacity to be a GL.

[j9ac9k]

Guy showed that an everyday gym teacher could be inwardly exceptional enough to be a GL and that just as important as will power is: “Location, location, location.” It adds an Everyman quality to the franchise. You find a way to step up when destiny calls. That’s a noble lesson applicable to everyone.

I just disagree with how you're interpreting the lore. (not that DC was consistent about it) For a long time, the point was that only a few are worthy enough - that's how it was originally presented. The GL concept wasn't originally meant to have an "everyman quality." The concept was meant to exalt the exceptional but times have changed where your interpretation has been showing up more for the sake of parity.

[Frontier]

Are we debating the necessary willpower that goes into how the ring selects someone or trying to downplay the "specialness" of how people end up being chosen since it seems like it's by pure chance and you just happen to have enough willpower?

[sifighter]

Are we debating the necessary willpower that goes into how the ring selects someone or trying to downplay the "specialness" of how people end up being chosen since it seems like it's by pure chance and you just happen to have enough willpower?

Wasn't that an issue of Green Lanterns during Rebirth? I remember some guy who would merge with the spirit of Power Ring and got the Phantom Ring that he put himself through hell on special forces missions to create Will power to be selected as a Green Lantern and then he got really bother by the fact Simon Baz was chosen.

Edit: Found a panel that summed up what he was doing. From Green Lanterns #9

[SecretWarrior]

There's also a difference between being exceptional and being unique. The GLs are exceptional when it comes to willpower, however the ring measures that, but they aren't unique. If that were the case, there would be situations when the ring couldn't select any subsequent candidate until another "unique" one came around. Guy is an everyman because he shows that willpower is what matters, not a hefty resume of previous accomplishments. It's like how Steve Rogers (heart) was selected vs how John Walker (accomplishments) was.

The Corps isn't supposed to come across as elitist.

[j9ac9k]

The Corps isn't supposed to come across as elitist.

My sense of those older comics is that it was. In an entire sector of space, there'd certainly be some, but they were still one in a trillion. But that was a time when being elite didn't have the negative connotations that it does now. (not that they even used that particular word -- well, maybe Ollie used it )

(and there's been a clear shift in culture - the whole, "first place trophy people" v. the "participation trophy people" and as you say, valuing one's innate quality and disregarding accomplishments)