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  1. #136
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    Discussion is pointless. Even if we could come to any kind of consensus about relative power levels and not have this conversation be biased from other views surrounding the characters involved, do you really think Duggan would have Firestar beat Emma at anything?

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Angel...es_(Earth-616)
    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Firestar will get speed blitzed either by telepathy or in diamond form. Emmas speed blitzed Blackbolt
    To quote Judge Judy,

    “WRONG!!!”

    Firestar is able to disrupt psionic attacks and will only get better at it.

    FA34B2F8-7069-4E7A-A1F1-8D01F80228D2.jpg
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  3. #138
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    Maybe Emma could just gift Firestar one of the horses she has on Krakoa. Call it "Butter Rum II."

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I just read this with one eye open—it’s been a grueling day—and, though I won’t write a proper response until tomorrow, I just wanted to say thank you for being so gracious, objective, and open-minded. You’ve given me some food for thought. ����
    Aw, thank you and no problem. There's already enough problems in the real world for we to focus on the negatives when it comes to our hobbies.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevlon View Post
    Firestar is more than capable of generating enough heat to degrade Emma in diamond form.

    Firestar isn't a killer and wouldn't have attacked Emma with forceto kill her. And she has to hold back her powers because she'll literally rip earth's atmosphere into shreds
    While the bolded would be true for a diamond in our world, we have multiple evidences showing that Emma's diamond form doesn't have the same properties as a real-world diamond. Diamonds are hard but brittle, Emma wouldn't survive half the stuff her diamond form endured if that weren't the case. Characters like Colossus/Emma/Thing only have their forms labeled Steel/Diamond/Stone skin because those are the materials they resemble, but numerous feats from all three of them show their forms don't share their real world counterparts' properties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    Discussion is pointless. Even if we could come to any kind of consensus about relative power levels and not have this conversation be biased from other views surrounding the characters involved, do you really think Duggan would have Firestar beat Emma at anything?
    Agreed that it's pointless, specially in comics where there's a lot of inconsistency when it comes to power levels. But it's still fun to discuss.
    If Firestar wins the election, and if there is a confrontation between the two, I don't think it'll be as one sided as you think though.

    Sure the tables have flipped - back in the Firestar Origin issues, she was the "it girl" that debuted in a famous cartoon and was being imported to comics due to popularity, like what would later happen to the likes of Harley Quinn and Laura/Wolverine II, while Emma was a pretty obscure and a secondary character. Now things are different, Emma's been a mainstay on the X side of the Marvel Universe ever since Generation X, which amounts to 20+ years of her constantly being on the center of events, leading stories etc, while Angelica hasn't been used regularly in comics for about 10 years, at least as far as I know. But she isn't nearly as obscure as Emma was back then, certainly not to the point where she would be just thrown under the bus for the sake of propping another character.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Angel...es_(Earth-616)

    To quote Judge Judy,

    “WRONG!!!”

    Firestar is able to disrupt psionic attacks and will only get better at it.
    Telepathic resistance and the like are extremely messy in the sense that it will only work when the story demands it.
    If there is a confrontation between the two and the writer wants Firestar to win, then her psionic disruption will be enough, but if he wants Emma to win, then it won't even be mentioned or Emma will find a way to circumvent it. And Emma also "got better at it".
    Back in their original fight, psionic disruption and telepathic resistance were rare feats. Now they're a dime in a dozen, Emma has way more experience against those in the present day, as she's dealt with psionic disruptors specifically designed to counter her.
    Either way, Angelica still doesn't have a counter for Emma's diamond form though, as shown in their last confrontation. Frost's DF allowed her to survive attacks from World War Hulk, Black Bolt and even a celestial - not only survive, but she was still capable of fighting after taking those hits. I'm not well versed on Firestar's feats , but if the only way she can channel power comparable to those mentioned above is by destroying Earth's atmosphere then that's simply not an option.
    Last edited by OldManLogan; 01-13-2022 at 10:25 PM.

  5. #140
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    Exactly, I mean, I’ve seen a lot of fans in social media saying that Firestar does not deserve to be an X-Man and nominated bc she preferred to hang out with the Avengers (as if that’s a bad thing). But they are all okies with Gorgon in the same position lmao.

    They draw the line with the Avengers but I guess Hydra is just fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Especially weird when you think about how many Xmen... have an Avengers card. It's a surprisingly long list TBH. Fact is... Mutants used to be... well... all over the place. Once upon a time in Marvel comics "Mutant" was just a character origin. "Why does he have powers? He's a Mutant." Poster boy and girl for this are Solarr and Mary Walker. 100% Mutants... 0% x-characters. At least in the comics they debuted in. Other stuff happened later, but neither started out having any connection to X-anything. OOH! two more great examples are Nekra Sinclair and Mandrill.

    Mary Walker is a long time Daredevil antagonist. She's only briefly dabbled in X-villainy, and was actually an Avenger(she joined the Initiative as Mutant Zero) for a while.
    Mandrill and Nekra first annoyed Shanna the She-devil. But later showed up in San Francisco.
    Solarr started out as a Captain America Villain. 616 Solarr has been dead since the 1980s. Xmen:TAS is the only time I know of that he was in ANYHTING X-men.... where he fights Cyclops.

    And Firestar ended up in this group of Mutants. she spent more time as an Avenger than in X-books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    She sorta did in Gen X 59. She said she owed her an apology but the words never came out of her mouth. At the end Firestar threatened her, saying if she ever found out about Emma messing with children's heads ever again, she and the Avengers would come after her. But saying I am sorry isn't really Emma's style. Another reason I find her quite annoying. She also has never apologized to Storm either. But people always throw off some bs about how it was all in the past or some other such nonsense as an excuse why she never needs to say it.
    Emma told Angelica that she felt Angelica deserved an apology, that really says a lot.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wat View Post
    Careful Brian least the Krakoans start spitting on you for dictating how the crucible should proceed.
    LOL!!! I thought they’d appreciate Firestar being put through it.

  7. #142
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Angel...es_(Earth-616)

    To quote Judge Judy,

    “WRONG!!!”

    Firestar is able to disrupt psionic attacks and will only get better at it.

    FA34B2F8-7069-4E7A-A1F1-8D01F80228D2.jpg
    She was brainwashed in Secret Empire by Emma

  8. #143
    Incredible Member Writerblog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    This is very understated. For Mastermind Jean’s dark desires fit his and the Hellfire’s antebellum notions and aesthetics, but to Jean her desire was unrestrained power and sensuality, which was hinted at repeatedly. Claremont wrote many layers within the story. Mastermind imposed control over Jean by systematically dismantling her true self and building new distorted persona with radically different beliefs. This is brainwash.

    If the story skipped over the Hellfire Club brainwashing and went straight into the Dark Phoenix. Then there wouldn’t have been a racists antebellum corset wearing ‘Black Queen/Lady Grey’ persona. It would be a completely different story. It would be a misogynistic story about how a young woman couldn’t handle great power and responsibility.

    Unintentionally many Marvel writers have misinterpreted the DPS or have intentionally avoided the themes of rape, abuse, and trauma. The villains of the story were Mastermind and the Hellfire Club not the PF. This is why we have ended up with the PF being a caricature villain cackling away and possessing people at random or by accident. More ludicrous is the new interpretation of the PF as a toxic ex-partner or parent, instead of a cosmic abstract of life and death meant to fulfill a role.

    The originally story did not have the consequential genocide of the D’bari. That was a decision made by the artist which inadvertently created a chain reaction.

    So Marvel chose to punish Jean (the victim) instead of making her into a survivor like Claremont originally intended in the the alternate ending in ‘Phoenix: The Untold Story’.

    This is why I agree that Morrison’s take on the PF has been the only adequate portrayal beyond Claremont’s. I.E. the Phoenix is inherited by genes/bloodline, it burns away what does not work (Phoenix Work), and esoteric themes of reaching a higher level of control consciousness and reuniting with a Devine being.

    This is why when Jean Grey eventually gets the Phoenix Force again she needs a true destiny fulfilled story. It also needs to be big one like repairing the M’Kraan Crystal, HCT, X-Men the End or what the followup to Second Coming should have been before Marvel decided Hope Summers would become a separate character and the Avengers would get involved. A new Phoenix Saga that can become a milestone story with Jean staying alive, sane, and reclaiming her iconography. She has more than earned the Phoenix name and rapport.
    Thanks. Sometimes I think I should study psychology.

    Claremont writing is pretty great because it is very rich and have some subtexts. Mastermind is a absolute scumbag, we shouldn't trust a word of what he says, even if he believes he is telling the truth. Not saying Jean grey doesn't has a dark side, she absolutely does. But one thing is act with your whole sound mind and other thing is being put on a fantasy, that takes away her own will to choose.

    One thing I disagree is that Phoenix shouldn't be passed as bloodline/genetic. It should go according to the person's worth. They have to earn it with their mind, actions and values.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Angel...es_(Earth-616)

    To quote Judge Judy,

    “WRONG!!!”

    Firestar is able to disrupt psionic attacks and will only get better at it.

    FA34B2F8-7069-4E7A-A1F1-8D01F80228D2.jpg
    That’s a cool ability for fire star and makes sense since she also manipulates the EMS, like how Mags was originally able to keep psychics out before the helmet anti psi shield became a thing. Although since it’s not innate, it rlly just depends on who’s faster. Or what it TRULY depends on, the writer in question.

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychicHobo View Post
    That’s a cool ability for fire star and makes sense since she also manipulates the EMS, like how Mags was originally able to keep psychics out before the helmet anti psi shield became a thing. Although since it’s not innate, it rlly just depends on who’s faster. Or what it TRULY depends on, the writer in question.
    Yeah. It’s an ability that most fans and writers aren’t aware of. And yeah it probably depends on the writer and who is faster. It’s also something Firestar could get better at, say with assistance from Jean or Synch.

    Her and Emma are two of my many favorite characters. I hope Angelica wins the vote so that Emma has some sort of opposition now that she’s on friendly terms with most of the X-World.
    Last edited by danielsan52; 01-14-2022 at 01:51 PM.
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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Yeah. It’s an ability that most fans and writers aren’t aware of. And yeah it probably depends on the writer and who is faster. It’s also something Firestar could get better at, say with assistance from Jean or Synch.

    Her and Emma are two of my many favorite characters. I hope Angelica wins the vote so that Emma has some sort of opposition now that she’s on friendly terms with most of the X-World.
    Honestly I can imagine Firestar having opposition with most of Krakoa's leading figures. Don't know how she'll be written by Duggan since he straight up called her a cop lmao but I'm hoping she provides some much needed criticism and apprehension of the Krakoan experiment. What I'm confused about is if she does win the vote, how the hell are they going to get her to drop whatever Avenging she's doing and join Krakoa's premier super team?

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychicHobo View Post
    Honestly I can imagine Firestar having opposition with most of Krakoa's leading figures. Don't know how she'll be written by Duggan since he straight up called her a cop lmao but I'm hoping she provides some much needed criticism and apprehension of the Krakoan experiment. What I'm confused about is if she does win the vote, how the hell are they going to get her to drop whatever Avenging she's doing and join Krakoa's premier super team?
    She is not being used anywhere right now...unfortunately.

  13. #148
    Extraordinary Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Emma has moved on now and is trying to be better.

    stormemma.jpg

    (apparently 2021 was a big year for cropping favroite scenes for me too. lol)

    She now helps young girls. #payingitbackwards
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  14. #149
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychicHobo View Post
    Honestly I can imagine Firestar having opposition with most of Krakoa's leading figures. Don't know how she'll be written by Duggan since he straight up called her a cop lmao but I'm hoping she provides some much needed criticism and apprehension of the Krakoan experiment. What I'm confused about is if she does win the vote, how the hell are they going to get her to drop whatever Avenging she's doing and join Krakoa's premier super team?
    Hmmm figuring out what certain of the captains would think is an interesting thought experiment since Firestar has literally never met some of them. Like what WOULD Exodus think of her?

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    This is very understated. For Mastermind Jean’s dark desires fit his and the Hellfire’s antebellum notions and aesthetics, but to Jean her desire was unrestrained power and sensuality, which was hinted at repeatedly. Claremont wrote many layers within the story. Mastermind imposed control over Jean by systematically dismantling her true self and building new distorted persona with radically different beliefs. This is brainwash.

    If the story skipped over the Hellfire Club brainwashing and went straight into the Dark Phoenix. Then there wouldn’t have been a racists antebellum corset wearing ‘Black Queen/Lady Grey’ persona. It would be a completely different story. It would be a misogynistic story about how a young woman couldn’t handle great power and responsibility.

    Unintentionally many Marvel writers have misinterpreted the DPS or have intentionally avoided the themes of rape, abuse, and trauma. The villains of the story were Mastermind and the Hellfire Club not the PF. This is why we have ended up with the PF being a caricature villain cackling away and possessing people at random or by accident. More ludicrous is the new interpretation of the PF as a toxic ex-partner or parent, instead of a cosmic abstract of life and death meant to fulfill a role.

    The originally story did not have the consequential genocide of the D’bari. That was a decision made by the artist which inadvertently created a chain reaction.

    So Marvel chose to punish Jean (the victim) instead of making her into a survivor like Claremont originally intended in the the alternate ending in ‘Phoenix: The Untold Story’.

    This is why I agree that Morrison’s take on the PF has been the only adequate portrayal beyond Claremont’s. I.E. the Phoenix is inherited by genes/bloodline, it burns away what does not work (Phoenix Work), and esoteric themes of reaching a higher level of control consciousness and reuniting with a Devine being.

    This is why when Jean Grey eventually gets the Phoenix Force again she needs a true destiny fulfilled story. It also needs to be big one like repairing the M’Kraan Crystal, HCT, X-Men the End or what the followup to Second Coming should have been before Marvel decided Hope Summers would become a separate character and the Avengers would get involved. A new Phoenix Saga that can become a milestone story with Jean staying alive, sane, and reclaiming her iconography. She has more than earned the Phoenix name and rapport.
    That’s just your interpretation.

    Also, yes, the destruction of the D’Bari was in the very first published issue of that part of the story, in X-Men #135. To say it wasn’t part of the original story just means it wasn’t part of the plot discussed by Claremont and Byrne, which Byrne has freely admitted. But you can’t just dismiss that as not being part of the original story. It was part of the original story as published. You can’t just say it was the artist, either. Byrne had “co-plotter” credit on that book, and throughout the Dark Phoenix Saga. That means Byrne was co-writing the story, even if he wasn’t scripting. One of the writer’s intentions was for Jean to commit genocide.

    Also in the original story, that’s Jean who destroys a planet, not some force. Yes, she has the Phoenix Force in the story, but it’s not some anthropomorphic thing. It’s a force, a super power, and it corrupts Jean. In #137, she says it will corrupt her every time.

    The Hellfire Club stuff is just what set it off, but it was going to happen anyway. The specific images might have been Mastermind’s, but the corruption of Jean was happening anyway. Jean wanted to do wrong. It wasn’t just rape or torture. Rape and torture do not usually end with the victim becoming evil. Jean wanted to be evil.

    The charitable view of the story would be that absolute power corrupts.

    But no one can deny that much of the original story can be read as straight-up misogynistic. You could read it as young women can’t handle power and responsibility, if you want. You wouldn’t be wrong.

    All of this is why Jean was better off left dead, instead of this retcon with her at the bottom of Jamaica Bay.

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