Did Emma Frost ever apologize to Firestar?

[ExodusCloak]

I wasn't trolling but simply stating and posting facts with a soupçon of snark. Considering you're such a huge fan of Emma, I'm sure you can appreciate that.



She is absolved. None of her crimes are ever brought up, her other questionable behavior is framed as being acceptable because [insert reason], and she's never really had to pay for either.



I posted those pages to illustrate that Emma went on to once more do exactly what Firestar had warned her not to do. I also posted pages praising Emma, again, with a soupçon of snark added for good measure.



I'm sure you would. Also, part of me feels the same way about Emma "represent[ing] everything I see wrong [with] the comic book industry." This is a character who has repeatedly--and, really, I've only recently, i.e., within the last 6-8 months, noticed this pattern--abused and violated not just adults but young adolescents and yet is praised and put on a pedestal for her "edgy" efforts. The normalization of child abuse--which is one of the topics of this thread--is not acceptable to me.



For the most part, I stay in my lane. I make a great effort to not troll fans or attack other characters. I'll go back to doing just that. However, to be fair, my snarky reply was intended for ExodusCloak, who, on several occasions, has gone out of their way to smear Jean, even creating a thread or two to double down on their efforts.

I sincerely apologize if I was too snarky and it hurt or bothered any of you. It really was a low-blow and petty of me.

At least I can do that much.

Oh thats what you were trying to do. I didnt think it was relevant anyway so just ignored it. I feel sometimes you post the same albeit out of context scans over which aren't really relevant to the topic at all which comes across as spammy and a little obnoxious when people are having a conversation where we don't want to talk about Jean every 3 seconds.

And while we are on this topic I just skimmed through all the threads I've created and can't find an example of what you're talking about. So would appreciate it if you would kindly leave me out of some crazed obsession where any criticism of an issue/writer/idea/the use of out of context scans when relevant to the topic is now the equivalent to smearing/insulting someone mother.

[kevlon]

Emma hs diamond skin so she cold easily counter that



Emma's far more poweful than Empath, whom doesnt have true telepathy. I dont think she would have the same effect on Emma

Enough heat applied to a diamond and it will decompose.

You're possibly right that angelicas microwaves might not be able to scramble Emma's tp. But I guess that depends on the writer. But seeing as everyone in the marvel universe has some form of tp defence and Emma herself trained Firestar, it wouldn't surprise me if angelica puts up a good fight on that front.

[Brian B]

Heh! This brings to mind the decades-old, erroneous argument that D'Ken raped Katherine Anne Summers and fathered Adam (Genetically engennered) Neramani only for it to be reviled that Katherine was never raped by D'Ken and the third Summers brother was actually Gabriel Summers.

But, Marvel did address Jason Wyngarde's behavior when Jean Grey telepathically mind-flog his dumbass.




Emma never apologized for her involvement in that debacle either... I'm just saying

Those panels from #134 are amazing.

It just goes to show how retcons and resurrections wreck everything.

There’s no Phoenix clone of Jean here. It’s just Jean.

Mastermind is a bastard and he pays a price. It’s also made clear that although manipulated, Jean had agency.

The Dark Phoenix saga as written and then edited by Jim Shooter, without all the b.s. that followed, is a story about how power corrupts.

Then they screwed it all up by resurrecting her again and again, and letting all the evil doers off the hook. Now, Emma’s an X leader, the Hellfire Club are allies, and it was never Jean’s fault. Chris Claremont, Byrne, all the editors and writers over the years just couldn’t help themselves, could they?

[Brian B]

I don’t think we’ll have to worry about Emma apologizing anytime soon to Firestar, whether there were previous half-hearted apologies prior or not. Do any of us think Firestar is popular enough to be voted onto the X-Men?

[kevlon]

I don’t think we’ll have to worry about Emma apologizing anytime soon to Firestar, whether there were previous half-hearted apologies prior or not. Do any of us think Firestar is popular enough to be voted onto the X-Men?

There's a lot of clamour on twitter about her. Whether that amounts to anything is anyone's guess.

[Saithor]

There's a lot of clamour on twitter about her. Whether that amounts to anything is anyone's guess.

Most of the clamor appears to be the usual X-men vs Avenger claptrap. Duggan didn’t help. That’s part of what kicked off this thread too. I do find it hilarious how apparently Firestar is being more controversial than the former supreme leader of Hydra.

[Mercury]

The Dark Phoenix saga as written and then edited by Jim Shooter, without all the b.s. that followed, is a story about how power corrupts.

Personally, I think the themes explored in the Dark Phoenix Saga are a little more complex than that. While "power corrupts" is certainly one of those themes, I also think abuse and trauma are core themes, too. Wyngarde overlaid Phoenix's desires with his own sensibilities—elitism and antebellum notions and aesthetics—contorting her base appetites for power and sensuality into much darker and more debased desires.

Wyngarde didn't just expose her "most private fantasies" but, as he admits—"She must have broken my control"—he controlled and implanted illusions in her mind, making her fall in love with and act sexually towards him, and turn against her friends. When he was done with her, she was physically intimate with him and frolicking around in a cape, bodice, and panties while attacking the people she had grown to consider family.

This page and panel speak to Phoenix's traumatized state more than any other in the DPS:

[ExodusCloak]

There's a lot of clamour on twitter about her. Whether that amounts to anything is anyone's guess.

I think its going to be Surge or Monet. Probably Surge

[Chris0013]

Most of the clamor appears to be the usual X-men vs Avenger claptrap. Duggan didn’t help. That’s part of what kicked off this thread too. I do find it hilarious how apparently Firestar is being more controversial than the former supreme leader of Hydra.

Of Mystique's Brotherhood that sold out to the US Government and enforced the Mutant Registration Act. With Firestar even being one of the mutants they went after...snitched by Emma Frost to try to get revenge for Firestar leaving her..

[Saithor]

Of Mystique's Brotherhood that sold out to the US Government and enforced the Mutant Registration Act. With Firestar even being one of the mutants they went after...snitched by Emma Frost to try to get revenge for Firestar leaving her..

Again, it doesn't make any sense, it's literally built off the "Avengers are cops" thing that's been building up in the minds of fans since AvsX. You've even got it in this forums with some people specifically going out of their way to misinterpret comic book issues so they can claim things like "Captain America killed Avalaunche at the beginning of Uncanny Avengers".

Edit: Oh, and unconfirmed rumors of what Firestar's role was going to be in a book that never got released.

[Brian B]

Personally, I think the themes explored in the Dark Phoenix Saga are a little more complex than that. While "power corrupts" is certainly one of those themes, I also think abuse and trauma are core themes, too. Wyngarde overlaid Phoenix's desires with his own sensibilities—elitism and antebellum notions and aesthetics—contorting her base appetites for power and sensuality into much darker and more debased desires.

Wyngarde didn't just expose her "most private fantasies" but, as he admits—"She must have broken my control"—he controlled and implanted illusions in her mind, making her fall in love with and act sexually towards him, and turn against her friends. When he was done with her, she was physically intimate with him and frolicking around in a cape, bodice, and panties while attacking the people she had grown to consider family.

This page and panel speak to Phoenix's traumatized state more than any other in the DPS:

I agree those themes are there, too. But it’s not as simple as she got abused and went bad. Indeed, some of the themes around the Black Queen appear to be that women having sex is dangerous, LoL! I don’t think I need to point out how asinine that theme is. Or is it, LoL?! Also, it is stated by Jean/Phoenix that Phoenix corrupting her is inevitable.

I stand by what I said about it would have been so much better if Marvel could have stopped retconning Phoenix so much.

[Brian B]

I think its going to be Surge or Monet. Probably Surge

Ugh! Anybody but Monet, please. I think a lot of those Gen X characters were not particularly well thought out, just excellently drawn.

[Brian B]

Again, it doesn't make any sense, it's literally built off the "Avengers are cops" thing that's been building up in the minds of fans since AvsX. You've even got it in this forums with some people specifically going out of their way to misinterpret comic book issues so they can claim things like "Captain America killed Avalaunche at the beginning of Uncanny Avengers".

Edit: Oh, and unconfirmed rumors of what Firestar's role was going to be in a book that never got released.

Maybe I just gotta get into the Krakoan spirit! Firestar suckz ‘cuz she’s friends with those genetically normatives, and Avengers?! The worst!

If Firestar joins, they need to Crucible her, even with her being powered, just to prove her loyalty with the cause. Picture it — Emma in her diamond form in the arena, glistening with diamond facets, dripping with streams of Firestar’s blood cascading down her diamond curves. Emma raises a giant battle axe over Firestar’s beaten down form. The crowd cheers and jeers. Magneto gives the thumb down as Xavier stands behind him, giving the nod. The crowd roars:

“Off with her head!”

Thunk! Firestar’s skull and red locks roll away.

Thus, another mutie traitor and ally to normies learns her lesson!

I don’t really want to read that, but I can get into the current Krakoan vibe if I try hard enough.

I’m thinking Krakoans need to spit on her as she’s hatched back to life, just to drive the point home.

[Mercury]

I agree those themes are there, too. But it’s not as simple as she got abused and went bad. Indeed, some of the themes around the Black Queen appear to be that women having sex is dangerous, LoL!

Being coupled and having sex with Jason Wyngarde, or, for that matter, viewing her friends as slaves, particularly Ororo, was hardly one of Phoenix's "most private fantasies." That's the point. He coerced her into being sexual with him and violent towards her friends by overlaying his own sociopathic fantasies and desires over hers. She desired unrestrained power and sensuality; he desired to impose his perceived superiority over, enslave and, in some cases, destroy others.

Also, it is stated by Jean/Phoenix that Phoenix corrupting her is inevitable.

This is true and one of the reasons why, though I still love it, I no longer consider the Dark Phoenix Saga as perfect a story as I once did. Viewing it through a modern lens, the story's flaws, tropes, and troubling aspects are glaringly apparent. In the end, the real meat of the story--the effects of abusing, traumatizing, and robbing someone of their agency--are only hinted at in service of underscoring that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," women can't handle great power, and Phoenixes are gonna Phoenix.

I much prefer Morrison's take on Phoenix, which was indisputably 100% Jean Grey.

[Brian B]

Being coupled and having sex with Jason Wyngarde, or, for that matter, viewing her friends as slaves, particularly Ororo, was hardly one of Phoenix's "most private fantasies." That's the point. He coerced her into being sexual with him and violent towards her friends by overlaying his own sociopathic fantasies and desires over hers. She desired unrestrained power and sensuality; he desired to impose his perceived superiority over, enslave and, in some cases, destroy others.



This is true and one of the reasons why, though I still love it, I no longer consider the Dark Phoenix Saga as perfect a story as I once did. Viewing it through a modern lens, the story's flaws, tropes, and troubling aspects are glaringly apparent. In the end, the real meat of the story--the effects of abusing, traumatizing, and robbing someone of their agency--are only hinted at in service of underscoring that "absolute power corrupts absolutely," women can't handle great power, and Phoenixes are gonna Phoenix.

I much prefer Morrison's take on Phoenix, which was indisputably 100% Jean Grey.

You keep placing blame on Mastermind and taking away any of Jean’s agency in the matter. Jean was manipulated, but no, those were not Mastermind’s fantasies. Those were Jean’s fantasies. It states that right in the text. Mastermind and Jean both state it.

Mastermind just tailored his illusions to Jean’s fantasies and projected the illusions into her mind. It’s ugly, but yes, Jean wanted her colleagues enslaved. She wanted to be some BDSM queen. Mastermind says so in his thoughts, and Jean says it out loud. The second image, middle panel is particularly instructive. The fantasies and desires are Jean’s. Mastermind just served them up to her.



And check that middle panel out. Jean says they are her “most private fantasies...,” and “You gave me what I secretly wanted...,” in the next panel.



I’m not saying trauma, abuse and rape aren’t part of the themes presented in the Dark Phoenix saga. I am saying it’s not as simple as Mastermind just mind controlled her. He unleashed her dark side, her dark fantasies. Enslaving people and being a serious kinkster are from Jean’s mind, not Mastermind’s mind. There really are some messed up things in that story, but it works very well on an emotional level.