Did Emma Frost ever apologize to Firestar?

[Writerblog]

That’s just your interpretation.

Also, yes, the destruction of the D’Bari was in the very first published issue of that part of the story, in X-Men #135. To say it wasn’t part of the original story just means it wasn’t part of the plot discussed by Claremont and Byrne, which Byrne has freely admitted. But you can’t just dismiss that as not being part of the original story. It was part of the original story as published. You can’t just say it was the artist, either. Byrne had “co-plotter” credit on that book, and throughout the Dark Phoenix Saga. That means Byrne was co-writing the story, even if he wasn’t scripting. One of the writer’s intentions was for Jean to commit genocide.

Also in the original story, that’s Jean who destroys a planet, not some force. Yes, she has the Phoenix Force in the story, but it’s not some anthropomorphic thing. It’s a force, a super power, and it corrupts Jean. In #137, she says it will corrupt her every time.

The Hellfire Club stuff is just what set it off, but it was going to happen anyway. The specific images might have been Mastermind’s, but the corruption of Jean was happening anyway. Jean wanted to do wrong. It wasn’t just rape or torture. Rape and torture do not usually end with the victim becoming evil. Jean wanted to be evil.

The charitable view of the story would be that absolute power corrupts.

But no one can deny that much of the original story can be read as straight-up misogynistic. You could read it as young women can’t handle power and responsibility, if you want. You wouldn’t be wrong.

All of this is why Jean was better off left dead, instead of this retcon with her at the bottom of Jamaica Bay.

That is just your interpretation. if it was going to happen anyway, the Hellfire Club is superfluous to the story and that is not what happened, they gave a massive trigger through abuse

[marhawkman]

But no one can deny that much of the original story can be read as straight-up misogynistic. You could read it as young women can’t handle power and responsibility, if you want. You wouldn’t be wrong.

to call it "misogynic" I think requires the writer to use the stance that a man would have done it better... and we've seen that to NOT be the case.

[Alan2099]

I think a part of this that's being over looked is that the Hellfire Club weren't trying to turn her into Dark Phoenix. They wanted her bad, sure, but they pushed a bit too hard and what they got was something else altogether.

[Brian B]

That is just your interpretation. if it was going to happen anyway, the Hellfire Club is superfluous to the story and that is not what happened, they gave a massive trigger through abuse

No, that is not my interpretation. Jean says that the transformation to Dark Phoenix is inevitable in X-Men #137.

Also, in case you mean something else was my interpretation, that Byrne was co-plotter and co-writing the story is a fact. It’s in the credits on the splash page on #135. Her destroying the D’Bari home world is original to the printed story is a fact as well, in the very first printing of #135 and all subsequent reprintings and retellings.

That the story could be seen as misogynistic seems undeniable to me, but that part is my interpretation.

[Brian B]

to call it "misogynic" I think requires the writer to use the stance that a man would have done it better... and we've seen that to NOT be the case.

I admit, the misogynistic aspect is my interpretation. But I think it’s pretty clearly misogynistic.

[seccruz]

Of course she did. In Young Allies.
Emma reaches out to Firestar, they have a heart to heart, Angel burns down her loft, they make peace as much as they can and leave in good terms.

[Chris0013]

Of course she did. In Young Allies.
Emma reaches out to Firestar, they have a heart to heart, Angel burns down her loft, they make peace as much as they can and leave in good terms.

I already pointed out that she didn't...Emma says she should apologize then goes into her sob story about all she went thru with the Hellions being killed and after. She made it all about her and never once said "Angelica, I am sorry for being such a heinous bitch to you. I hope you can forgive me."

[Micabe]

I already pointed out that she didn't...Emma says she should apologize then goes into her sob story about all she went thru with the Hellions being killed and after. She made it all about her and never once said "Angelica, I am sorry for being such a heinous bitch to you. I hope you can forgive me."

[marhawkman]

I admit, the misogynistic aspect is my interpretation. But I think it’s pretty clearly misogynistic.

Enh... in what way is it due to Jean being a woman? The "power corrupts" trope... is gender neutral. So, invoking that trope has no real bearing on gender. Thus it falls to the circumstances by which the trope was invoked.

[Brian B]

Enh... in what way is it due to Jean being a woman? The "power corrupts" trope... is gender neutral. So, invoking that trope has no real bearing on gender. Thus it falls to the circumstances by which the trope was invoked.

The whole Dark Phoenix saga is about Jean being a floozie and then being unable to handle the results. The messages in it are really pretty questionable, IMO. It’s all about how a young woman can’t be trusted and then with too much power loses her mind, and kills a planet. Maybe you don’t see the misogyny in it, but I am far from the first person to have such an opinion on the story. I still think it’s a high point in Marvel’s publishing history and its stories, but that’s mostly because the art is great and it has an emotional power, even if the moral of the story is a bit questionable.

[Brian B]

There’s a lot of essays and thought pieces about the Dark Phoenix saga, but I think this one from Sequart really gives a great overview of the pros and cons of whether or not the story is misogynistic. The author doesn’t really think it is, but they still give a great overview of the arguments around the story.

That’s just part of the essay. The whole essay is really about how difficult it is for movies to properly adapt the story, because Claremont’s, and Byrne’s, Phoenix and Dark Phoenix comics are long-form serials. A two- or three-hour movie will miss all the subtlety allowed for by the serial nature of those comics. In explaining that opinion, the author gets deep into the arguments around Dark Phoenix Saga’s misogyny or supposed misogyny.

I recommend it for those interested in opinions on that story.

http://sequart.org/magazine/69807/th...-phoenix-saga/

[Mercury]

The Hellfire Club stuff is just what set it off, but it was going to happen anyway. The specific images might have been Mastermind’s, but the corruption of Jean was happening anyway. Jean wanted to do wrong. It wasn’t just rape or torture. Rape and torture do not usually end with the victim becoming evil. Jean wanted to be evil.

Wyngarde and the HC did more than just "set it off"--they placed her in a position, with Wyngarde and Emma's help, in which she thought the harm she was doing was normal for the era in which she believed she lived. Again, the antebellum aesthetics and notions were theirs, as evidenced by their choice of attire and decorations and hierarchical structure.

As for whether rape and torture result in anger and destructive behavior, it can and has for many victims--and not just toward themselves. Add to that the testimonies of victims of sexual abuse who have admitted to feeling pleasure during the violations perpetrated against them, even when they were simultaneously feeling fear and pain, and have been plagued by guilt as a result, and one begins to realize the complexity of what transpired in the DPS.

All of this is why Jean was better off left dead, instead of this retcon with her at the bottom of Jamaica Bay.

Of course, I disagree. For one, Morrison's era of New X-Men would not have been the same, nor any of the paradigm-shifting changes that came after it. As Ororo once stated:



I understand that some people disagree with Ororo's statement, and I respect that. However, quite a few people, myself included, do agree. She's an integral part of the X-Men. Had she remained dead, many things would have turned out differently and not necessarily for the better.

[Brian B]

Wyngarde and the HC did more than just "set it off"--they placed her in a position, with Wyngarde and Emma's help, in which she thought the harm she was doing was normal for the era in which she believed she lived. Again, the antebellum aesthetics and notions were theirs, as evidenced by their choice of attire and decorations and hierarchical structure.

As for whether rape and torture result in anger and destructive behavior, it can and has for many victims--and not just toward themselves. Add to that the testimonies of victims of sexual abuse who have admitted to feeling pleasure during the violations perpetrated against them, even when they were simultaneously feeling fear and pain, and have been plagued by guilt as a result, and one begins to realize the complexity of what transpired in the DPS.



Of course, I disagree. For one, Morrison's era of New X-Men would not have been the same, nor any of the paradigm-shifting changes that came after it. As Ororo once stated:



I understand that some people disagree with Ororo's statement, and I respect that. However, quite a few people, myself included, do agree. She's an integral part of the X-Men. Had she remained dead, many things would have turned out differently and not necessarily for the better.

So, intergalactic genocide is Charlie’s dream? I had no idea. That explains a lot.

To be fair and slightly more serious, I am well aware that for decades by this point in the continuity, Jean is not a monster, that Phoenix is the separate, uncontrollably violent entity.

IMO, Morrison’s X-Men is an abomination. The first few issues are good, but by the time Quietly left, it was all over. Whether it was editorial interference or not, those stories are just a mess, with such substandard art for huge swaths of issues. Morrison took a flagship title and buried it alive. Only Hickman’s comes close to being worse, but that’s, IMO, only because Hickman wasn’t allowed to finish his story.

[Mercury]

So, intergalactic genocide is Charlie’s dream? I had no idea. That explains a lot. To be fair, I am well aware that for decades by this point in the continuity, Jean is not a monster, that Phoenix is the separate, uncontrollably violent entity.

I don't know to what you are referring but it can't possibly be the DPS because Dark Phoenix did not commit genocide. Oxford's definition of genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6R7j7KX...jpg&name=large

She did not deliberately destroy D'Bari nor did she aim to destroy its people due to their ethnicity. Her aim was to eat a star. The captions even state she ate the star "without a thought of the consequences," i.e., she wasn't aware of what would happen as a result of her actions.

IMO, Morrison’s X-Men is an abomination. The first few issues are good, but by the time Quietly left, it was all over. Whether it was editorial interference or not, those stories are just a mess, with such substandard art for huge swaths of issues. Morrison took a flagship title and buried it alive. Only Hickman’s comes close to being worse, but that’s, IMO, only because Hickman wasn’t allowed to finish his story.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's good to know where you stand, especially while having this discussion.

[Brian B]

I don't know to what you are referring but it can't possibly be the DPS because Dark Phoenix did not commit genocide. Oxford's definition of genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6R7j7KX...jpg&name=large

She did not deliberately destroy D'Bari nor did she aim to destroy its people due to their ethnicity. Her aim was to eat a star. The captions even state she ate the star "without a thought of the consequences," i.e., she wasn't aware of what would happen as a result of her actions.





I'm sorry you feel that way. It's good to know where you stand, especially while having this discussion.

You’re splitting hairs over a fictional genocide. Phoenix was nearly a goddess and telepathic. She knew those people were there. Whether she meant to kill them or just didn’t give a crud about killing them while getting her proverbial rocks off is nearly irrelevant. Careless indifference to life to that degree would be a great evil, no matter what word is used to describe it.