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  1. #166
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    You’re splitting hairs over a fictional genocide. Phoenix was nearly a goddess and telepathic. She knew those people were there. Whether she meant to kill them or just didn’t give a crud about killing them while getting her proverbial rocks off is nearly irrelevant. Careless indifference to life to that degree would be a great evil, no matter what word is used to describe it.
    I'm sorry, but it wasn't a genocide. And I'm not "splitting hairs," I'm stating definitions and facts. The fact that you are trying to persuade me and our audience to believe that "she knew those people were there" makes me question your intent. The fact of the matter is, what happened as a result of her actions was horrific and a crime. There is no need to embellish into being something that it wasn't.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    "

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
    Missing me one place search another,
    I stop somewhere waiting for you.
    "

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I'm sorry, but it wasn't a genocide. And I'm not "splitting hairs," I'm stating definitions and facts. The fact that you are trying to persuade me and our audience to believe that "she knew those people were there" makes me question your intent. The fact of the matter is, what happened as a result of her actions was horrific and a crime. There is no need to embellish into being something that it wasn't.
    One of the effects of full-scale nuclear war is predicted to be “omnicide.” This is what people at places like the Department of Defense and Rand call it. It’s a term of art, their arts, so to speak. There are no war plans, as far as we know, that would deliberately kill all life on Earth. That’s just an unfortunate, predicted side effect of full-scale nuclear war. These are hypothetical and theoretical concepts in the real world. In a full-scale nuclear attack, omnicide would likely follow. All life on earth would likely die. Since killing everything alive is not the intent, does that make the person who launches an all-out nuclear war guilty of omnicide or genocide?

    By your definition and a dictionary’s definition — not the ones established as law in trials like Nuremberg — the person starting a full-scale nuclear war is not guilty of genocide, according to you, since that’s not the intent.

    That’s the exact kind of action Phoenix performed in X-Men #135. She didn’t give a thought to the people she fried.

    I think your definition of genocide is faulty. I think what Jean did was actually an omnicide. Splitting hairs over any of it is ridiculous.

    Phoenix is a genocidal monster, incidentally or not.
    Last edited by Brian B; 01-20-2022 at 11:42 AM.

  3. #168
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    One of the effects of full-scale nuclear war is predicted to be “omnicide.” This is what people at places like the Department of Defense and Rand call it. It’s a term of art, their arts, so to speak. There are no war plans, as far as we know, that would deliberately kill all life on Earth. That’s just an unfortunate, predicted side effect of full-scale nuclear war. These are hypothetical and theoretical concepts in the real world. In a full-scale nuclear attack, omnicide would likely follow. All life on earth would likely die. Since killing everything alive is not the intent, does that make the person who launches an all-out nuclear war guilty of omnicide or genocide?

    By your definition and a dictionary’s definition — not the ones established as law in trials like Nuremberg — the person starting a full-scale nuclear war is not guilty of genocide, according to you, since that’s not the intent.

    That’s the exact kind of action Phoenix performed in X-Men #135. She didn’t give a thought to the people she fried.

    I think you definition of genocide is faulty. I think what Jean did was actually an omnicide. Splitting hairs over any of it is ridiculous.

    Phoenix is a genocidal monster, incidentally or not.
    Firstly, she didn't start a war; she was hungry and ate a star. Secondly, the definition of genocide I posted is not mine but Oxford's. Thirdly, stating that "she knew those people were there" is simply conjecture. The fact of the matter is, we don't know for sure, though the actual text implies that she didn't know. Finally, if she had been omniscient and omnipotent, she wouldn't have been hungry.

    It was not genocide. Case closed.

    Next!

    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    "

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
    Missing me one place search another,
    I stop somewhere waiting for you.
    "

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Firstly, she didn't start a war; she was hungry and ate a star. Secondly, the definition of genocide I posted is not mine but Oxford's. Thirdly, stating that "she knew those people were there" is simply conjecture. The fact of the matter is, we don't know for sure, though the actual text implies that she didn't know. Finally, if she had been omniscient and omnipotent, she wouldn't have been hungry.

    It was not genocide. Case closed.

    Next!

    The Oxford dictionary is not the final say on what constitutes genocide. According to your definition, it really doesn’t matter if it’s a war or hunger that causes genocide. According to what you say, it’s the intent. According to you, Phoenix didn’t mean to kill the D’Bari. That was not her intent, according to you. Her intent was to “feed” a “hunger.”

    By your definition, it could be argued Hitler was not a genocidal monster. He just wanted Lebensraum for the German people. The genocide of European Jewry wasn’t the intent. Crimes against humanity in Poland, Ukraine and Russia wasn’t the intent. Making sure the German nation had enough wheat and land to live and grow was the intent. This is according to your definition.

    As I said before, your definition of genocide, even for fiction like the X-Men, is faulty. And it is not complete. The trials at Nuremberg firmly established that intent was not the key to obtaining guilty verdicts against war criminals. Indeed, arguments for the defense over intent — such as the accused were not committing genocide as they were just following orders or didn’t specifically know about the death camps — proved not to be a factor in whether or not the Nazis had committed crimes against humanity. Intent is not a defense against genocide, according to the handful of times such cases have been tried.
    Last edited by Brian B; 01-20-2022 at 12:36 PM.

  5. #170
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Brian, please, let's not belabor this. While I respect your view and opinion, the case has been closed.

    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    "

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
    Missing me one place search another,
    I stop somewhere waiting for you.
    "

  6. #171
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Jean killed a hell of a lot of people. Does it matter what word we use to describe it?

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Brian, please, let's not belabor this. While I respect your view and opinion, the case has been closed.

    The “case” is only “closed” according to you. I’ve been waiting since 1986, FF #286, or maybe even 1980, X-Men #137, for justice for the D’Bari, which I know will never come. The limits of metaphor and fiction in the Big Two’s comics clearly break down, because they don’t want to confront what they published. They just want to continue on with the superheroics. Shooter got it close to right when he had Claremont and Byrne off Jean.

  8. #173
    Mighty Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    can someone explain how in a thread about Emma and Firestar you guys are suddenly talking about Phoenix and Jean Grey?

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    can someone explain how in a thread about Emma and Firestar you guys are suddenly talking about Phoenix and Jean Grey?
    All roads in the X-Men lead to Phoenix.

    Think about it. All significant runs on the comic end up back at Phoenix. Claremont, multiple times, multiple storylines. Morrison ended with the Phoenix. Even Bendis’ run ended up about Phoenix, really. It’s easy to end up talking about it.

    But, in consideration for the thread, here is Firestar’s first meeting with the X-Men, aside from Ice Man.


  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    The “case” is only “closed” according to you. I’ve been waiting since 1986, FF #286, or maybe even 1980, X-Men #137, for justice for the D’Bari, which I know will never come. The limits of metaphor and fiction in the Big Two’s comics clearly break down, because they don’t want to confront what they published. They just want to continue on with the superheroics. Shooter got it close to right when he had Claremont and Byrne off Jean.
    Okay, before I dart off, I have to say this: You're too cute! Your severity is endearing.

    Personally, I think Jean as the White Phoenix of the Crown should have reconstructed and resurrected D'Bari and its people. If they ever return the Phoenix Force to her, I hope something along those lines features as part of the story. That being said, considering the fact that the Phoenix clone destroyed D'Bari, I think Jean has paid enough, including with her time in stasis and subsequent death, both of which lasted several years. Most importantly, her entire family was slaughtered--intentionally--as a result of the Dark Phoenix's actions and she was later captured and put on trial as a time-displaced teenager. Food for thought.

    In either case, I seriously have to run!
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
    "

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
    Missing me one place search another,
    I stop somewhere waiting for you.
    "

  11. #176
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    can someone explain how in a thread about Emma and Firestar you guys are suddenly talking about Phoenix and Jean Grey?
    Telepathic mutant + Fire Mutant = Phoenix

    Personally, I think Jean as the White Phoenix of the Crown should have reconstructed and resurrected D'Bari and its people. If they ever return the Phoenix Force to her, I hope something along those lines features as part of the story. That being said, considering the fact that the Phoenix clone destroyed D'Bari, I think Jean has paid enough, including with her time in stasis and subsequent death, both of which lasted several years. Most importantly, her entire family was slaughtered--intentionally--as a result of the Dark Phoenix's actions and she was later captured and put on trial as a time-displaced teenager. Food for thought.
    Why them and why not all the other races the Phoenix has killed over the years?

  12. #177
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    can someone explain how in a thread about Emma and Firestar you guys are suddenly talking about Phoenix and Jean Grey?
    Errr

    GrindrStone(D)

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Errr

    I was going to post a 'hysterical laughter' gif...but thought this more appropriate...


  14. #179
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    I wonder if Firestar will ever deliver a swift kick to Emma's Butt for being such a manipulating bitch.

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