Did Emma Frost ever apologize to Firestar?

[Brian B]

Back to Firestar, when do the results of the X-Men poll get announced? When do we learn who is the new X-Person?

[ExodusCloak]

Back to Firestar, when do the results of the X-Men poll get announced? When do we learn who is the new X-Person?

Probably at the next Gala

[Mercury]

You keep placing blame on Mastermind and taking away any of Jean's agency in the matter. Jean was manipulated, but no, those were not Mastermind's fantasies. Those were Jean's fantasies. It states that right in the text. Mastermind and Jean both state it.

Mastermind just tailored his illusions to Jean's fantasies and projected the illusions into her mind. It's ugly, but yes, Jean wanted her colleagues enslaved. She wanted to be some BDSM queen. Mastermind says so in his thoughts, and Jean says it out loud. The second image, middle panel is particularly instructive. The fantasies and desires are Jean's. Mastermind just served them up to her.

Wyngarde also makes clear that he was "control[ling]" her, and Phoenix alludes to him "enslaving" her (see panels below). Again, this is precisely why I no longer consider this story perfect: It contradicts itself, is vague in some parts, and generally pussyfoots around the fact that, in the end, Wyngarde psychically, emotionally, and physically violated Phoenix--the latter two which have been scientifically proven to have immediate effects on one's cognition and behavior.



Furthermore, I think it is too easy to mistake Wyngarde's illusions and mind-control with Jean's "innermost fantasies," which, as I noted above, in a general sense, were obviously for unrestrained power and sensuality rather than to enslave her friends and dress in a bodice and panties, or "to be some BDSM queen," as you so eloquently phrased it. It's important to note, as I did in my previous post, that Wyngarde and the Hellfire Club are the characters favoring antebellum notions and aesthetics, not Jean. In fact, some issues later, Emma would take over (enslave?) Ororo's body and use it to relish in the use of her powers and to be intimate with Shaw, who suggested Ororo would "make an excellent White Queen."

I'm not saying trauma, abuse and rape aren't part of the themes presented in the Dark Phoenix saga. I am saying it's not as simple as Mastermind just mind controlled her. He unleashed her dark side, her dark fantasies. Enslaving people and being a serious kinkster are from Jean's mind, not Mastermind's mind. There really are some messed up things in that story, but it works very well on an emotional level.

I never claimed that you were disputing that abuse, rape, and trauma are central themes of the story. However, the evidence, i.e., art and dialogue, presented within the story does not conclusively make clear that every single detail of Wyngarde's illusions stemmed from Jean's fantasies. Again, he, Emma Frost, and the Hellfire Club were the characters prone to enslaving people and leaning towards antebellum notions and aesthetics. They used the Phoenix's hunger for power and sensuality to fit into their world and adopt their notions.

Finally, whereas, for decades, the Phoenix's destruction of D'Bari has been the central focal point of this story, rarely are Wyngarde and co.'s crimes brought up.

[RachelGrey]

I hope we get a big surprise and find out that Firestar has been a double agent for Krakoa this whole time and that she is working for Krakoa. Even better, would be if Emma recruited her in the first place.

Someone was keeping Scott and Storm advised on the activities of CRADLE and I bet Firestar was their inside agent.

[Phoenixx9]

Yeah, and anyone who truly knows Jean Grey, her history, her character, all her early adventures, knows that Jean, especially back then, had no "deep, dark, repressed fantasies". That is not our girl. Not at all. All Mastermind and White Queen.

[Brian B]

Yeah, and anyone who truly knows Jean Grey, her history, her character, all her early adventures, knows that Jean, especially back then, had no "deep, dark, repressed fantasies". That is not our girl. Not at all. All Mastermind and White Queen.

Of course, it all got retconned with FF #286, but the text is clear that these were Jean’s desires. That is not “our girl,” because it was Phoenix. But pryor to that (pun intended), it most decidedly was “our girl.” What’s so unbelievable? That lily white Jean from upper middle class white suburbia would have closet racist ideas? Why is that even surprising? That she’d be tired of some meek guy who can’t even show his face to her, and that she would have physical needs that “Slim” Summers couldn’t or wouldn’t fulfill? Read what’s on the page. It says it right there. These were her fantasies. She says so.

I’m not saying she would have gone that way if Mastermind didn’t push her. But the idea that this was all Mastermind’s doing is just not there in the text or the art.

Without Mastermind, she probably would have skipped the whole Hellfire Club thing and gone straight to Dark Phoenix.

[ExodusCloak]

Yeah, and anyone who truly knows Jean Grey, her history, her character, all her early adventures, knows that Jean, especially back then, had no "deep, dark, repressed fantasies". That is not our girl. Not at all. All Mastermind and White Queen.

You should avoid Claremonts interview in X-Men Companion at all costs. He wrote the story about Phoenix trying to find the ultimate orgasm and she the act of devouring the sun was an act of self gratification...

The premise of the story is really gross, outdated and well probably a tad bit misogynistic

Although Xaviers dark side did Kill more and try and rape Dani...

[Saithor]

I hope we get a big surprise and find out that Firestar has been a double agent for Krakoa this whole time and that she is working for Krakoa. Even better, would be if Emma recruited her in the first place.

Someone was keeping Scott and Storm advised on the activities of CRADLE and I bet Firestar was their inside agent.

I kinda hope not because I think there should be Mutants who aren’t fully onboard with the Krakoa idea (what Fallen Angels was supposed to be about), and I think it’s an idea worth exploring. I just don’t trust Duggan and White to do that exploring.

[king of hybrids]

It’s really hard to assume a credible ACAB position when you’ve just dabbled in Social Darwinism Duggan (Mutant billionaires should always be unironic ally praised, human blue collars deserve only death!)

Also, where does the scheduled announcement issues lie in relation to Judgement Day?

[Brian B]

You should avoid Claremonts interview in X-Men Companion at all costs. He wrote the story about Phoenix trying to find the ultimate orgasm and she the act of devouring the sun was an act of self gratification...

The premise of the story is really gross, outdated and well probably a tad bit misogynistic

Although Xaviers dark side did Kill more and try and rape Dani...

I think in retrospect there are some things wrong with the story.

A lot of it, really, seems fearful of women’s sexuality.

It’s really odd, because it’s not pro-family values at all, or anything like that. It’s more base than that, like the casual misogyny to be found in a Led Zeppelin song.

The manipulation by Mastermind is creepy.

Then the second “act” ends in genocide. I agree with Jim Shooter’s original stance on this. You cannot have any kind of protagonist who commits genocide, no matter how ridiculous. It’s just not right. And the genocide was a screw up. It wasn’t even in the plot Claremont and Byrne hashed out. Byrne just added it in, and it got by the editors.

At the same time, it hits hard on an emotional level, even if the messages are screwed up. That’s why it’s so good.

The art is top notch. Most comic art these days is still not as good as what Byrne and Austin did during that run. Issue #136 is glorious. It is, in my opinion, Byrne-Austin’s high-water mark.

I am going to have to get a copy or find X-Men Companion online somewhere. I forgot all about those. The best part about those X-Men Companions are the dynamite covers by Michael Golden and Gil Kane. Check those out.

[Writerblog]

Wyngarde also makes clear that he was "control[ling]" her, and Phoenix alludes to him "enslaving" her (see panels below). Again, this is precisely why I no longer consider this story perfect: It contradicts itself, is vague in some parts, and generally pussyfoots around the fact that, in the end, Wyngarde psychically, emotionally, and physically violated Phoenix--the latter two which have been scientifically proven to have immediate effects on one's cognition and behavior.



Furthermore, I think it is too easy to mistake Wyngarde's illusions and mind-control with Jean's "innermost fantasies," which, as I noted above, in a general sense, were obviously for unrestrained power and sensuality rather than to enslave her friends and dress in a bodice and panties, or "to be some BDSM queen," as you so eloquently phrased it. It's important to note, as I did in my previous post, that Wyngarde and the Hellfire Club are the characters favoring antebellum notions and aesthetics, not Jean. In fact, some issues later, Emma would take over (enslave?) Ororo's body and use it to relish in the use of her powers and to be intimate with Shaw, who suggested Ororo would "make an excellent White Queen."



I never claimed that you were disputing that abuse, rape, and trauma are central themes of the story. However, the evidence, i.e., art and dialogue, presented within the story does not conclusively make clear that every single detail of Wyngarde's illusions stemmed from Jean's fantasies. Again, he, Emma Frost, and the Hellfire Club were the characters prone to enslaving people and leaning towards antebellum notions and aesthetics. They used the Phoenix's hunger for power and sensuality to fit into their world and adopt their notions.

Finally, whereas, for decades, the Phoenix's destruction of D'Bari has been the central focal point of this story, rarely are Wyngarde and co.'s crimes brought up.

The story may not contradict itself. For what I know from real life abusers, they always place the blame on the abused: they wanted it, they didn't said no, they didn't fought enough.
Claremont is very clever on doing dual point of views: some people gonna side with the rapist and others ( I hope the majority) gonna pick the survivor.
I trust more on a hero than a freaking villain

[OldManLogan]

For the most part, I stay in my lane. I make a great effort to not troll fans or attack other characters. I'll go back to doing just that. However, to be fair, my snarky reply was intended for ExodusCloak, who, on several occasions, has gone out of their way to smear Jean, even creating a thread or two to double down on their efforts.

I sincerely apologize if I was too snarky and it hurt or bothered any of you. It really was a low-blow and petty of me.

At least I can do that much.

You have nothing to apologize for, you weren't disrespectful at all. Besides, if anyone is bothered by your posts they can just skip them.
As I said before, what was funny to me was the trolling* falling on deaf ears, specially in light of the recent drama on the X-Men #5 thread.
*For the record, I'm not questioning your comment that you weren't trolling, I believe you, that was just my assumption when first reading the thread.

I wasn't trolling but simply stating and posting facts with a soupçon of snark. Considering you're such a huge fan of Emma, I'm sure you can appreciate that.

I know this is a tongue in cheek comment, but Emma is a fictional character whose snarky remarks are directed at other fictional characters. Posters/Fans are a different deal.
Believe it or not, I don't go around saying 'Bub' all the time just because Logan is one of my favorites, just like I don't think you enjoy putting words on people's mouths just because Jean does (just kidding, just kidding).

Also, stating "facts" can be counted as trolling if it's intended to get a rise out of someone else. "Facts" between "" because just being printed pages doesn't make them facts, as they can be easily taken out of context (the one where you sorta praised Emma for example, her powers were broken at that time, but you can't tell that just by looking at that page).

She is absolved. None of her crimes are ever brought up, her other questionable behavior is framed as being acceptable because [insert reason], and she's never really had to pay for either.

Wait, when you say not absolved you mean actually being put on trial for those crimes? Because if that's what you mean that's just an unrealistic expectation. With the sliding timescale, no one can really serve time unless they either break out of jail (which would make it worse) or are revealed/retconned to being innocent afterall (in Emma's case, it would be a retcon, and I hate those). Besides, she was in prison for a while, and covers suggest she'll go to another one soon (though covers can be misleading).

Now if we're talking absolved figuratively, in a way that makes sense in comic book stories? She definetly wasn't absolved in any way at all.
1) In the stories themselves? She's spent more time with the X-Men than against them, yet trust issues are a constant plot point on her stories.
Plus, during the time she was a villain, every crime she commited against any of the heroes she ended up defeated - some of which are depicted here in this very thread - even ending up in a coma twice. She never commited a crime without consequences for her when she was a villain. Ever since Generation X? That's when Emma started to get the spotlight, so from them on, her crimes stopped being the "villain doing villain things" type and started being more of the "making the hard decisions" kind.

2) By the fans? There are people that still consider her a villain, despite the facts that (a) her redemption arc happened almost 30 years ago and (b) her contributions for the franchise are far bigger as an (anti)hero than a villain. Few characters can say they defined an entire decade like Emma Frost did in the post Morrison years. That is a far bigger contribution than whatever minor role she played as a villain.

I'm sure you would. Also, part of me feels the same way about Emma "represent[ing] everything I see wrong [with] the comic book industry." This is a character who has repeatedly--and, really, I've only recently, i.e., within the last 6-8 months, noticed this pattern--abused and violated not just adults but young adolescents and yet is praised and put on a pedestal for her "edgy" efforts. The normalization of child abuse--which is one of the topics of this thread--is not acceptable to me.

And this here is where we must draw the line. You have every right to feel that way, I don't know your experiences and what you look for in the characters you like - what makes your favorite characters tick for you. But that's not the same for all other fans. I don't know, for me personally, while Nightcrawler is one of my personal favorites, in general I tend to gravitate towards the heroes that stay on that gray area, sometimes slipping to either side of the fence. Comics for me are escapism, so Wolverine cutting loose and going on a killing spree when he is triggered is cool because I know I can't do that - but boy, do I wish sometimes I could cut loose too. Or a recently reformed Emma going all "Ugh, so I can't kill people anymore? *sigh* OK I'll just put a telepathic trigger on these fools' heads so that they'll vomit when they hear these 3 random words." Characters like Kurt (and I'm using one of my top favorites heres to avoid any bias) feel like the norm to me, they're acting as I'd expect decent people to act.

I'm not OK with the normalization of child abuse (or animals by the way) in real life, but there's reality and then there's comic books. All the children Frost abused were the protagonists of their respective stories , I knew before finishing the story that the experience would only make them stronger. Firestar is actually a good example, she wouldn't be a hero without Emma, who was just a villain used as a catalyst for Angelica's development as character. Once writers got interested in Emma herself, and stories started treating her as a character and not just an obstacle to be surpassed, then things got interesting, because then their interactions started to be about developing them both, instead of using one as a stepping stone for the other. That situation is not comparable with child abuse in real life at all, as we know there are real, serious and damaging consequences for child abuse, while the consequences for Angelica were a cool superhero origin story and learning to handle her powers better.

And finally, because I feel my jab earlier was unnecessary, to be fair with Jean I don't have a problem with her as a character, for me she just represents the overreliance on nostalgia and old, classic storylines, since she's one of the characters that got favored a lot by the deal with Fox. As far as comics stories go she's cool on my book. I'm a child of the 80's, so I was a teen during the X-Men's boom in the 90s, and back then the classics didn't have that much of a pull. If during the 90's Marvel treated the X-Men as they did the past decade, we would've had "Dazzler and the X-Men" before what we got with X-Men TAS. Whenever I see people putting stories like Days of Future Past or Dark Phoenix on a pedestal and wanting to prioritize those over the current storylines I'm like "you guys are SO missing the point of what made the X-Men the big success they were back then". In the 90's, Marvel's focus for the X-Men was the here and now whenever we saw then out of comics, sure the classic storylines got their due, but the characters, the costumes, the interactions and the whole setting used, those were all current at the time.

[Peanutsinspace]

I feel like I'm the only person who likes the Emma/Angelica "relationship" as is. No, she's never going to apologize and no Angel is never going to forgive her or forget and that's where it stands and that's perfectly fine because it's like that in real life sometimes.

Anyway, Mastermind is gross.

[BESTXMAN]

As far as I'm concerned she needs to apologize to Butter Rum first.

[Mercury]

OldManLogan, I haven’t read your post but will read and respond to it. I just wanted to share this. This is trolling and quite glorious and brilliant, too: