Opinion, Do you perfer to read or watch about High School Peter or Adult Peter?

[PCN24454]

Teamups are fine, what I meant was a solo hero in the fact that he send other heroes to take care of things for him so he can excel as Peter whenever there is a conflict between his obligations as Peter and as Spider-Man. I wasn’t referring to traditional teamups because in that case he is still out as Spider-Man.

The context of the conversation is that the point of the character is the conflict between his responsibilities as Peter vs Spider-Man. It works better if he can’t depend on all the other Marvel characters to do the heroics for him whenever he is in a jam.

He has called up heroes before and that is fine, it just shouldn’t be the go to solution every time because then you are erasing the core of what this character is about.

Well, no one ever said that Spider-Man was a good role model.

I feel like too many forms of media point out how toxic that sort of behavior is.

[Vortex85]

Well, no one ever said that Spider-Man was a good role model.

I feel like too many forms of media point out how toxic that sort of behavior is.

In a world where he is the only superhero in New York it wouldn't be an option, he would be the only one people could depend on to save them. But the fact that he doesn't just quit when there are tons of superheroes in New York is just suspension of disbelief by the reader. You have to feel Peter must take care of the problem himself when he is going to make sacrifices in his life as Peter as a result.

[PCN24454]

In a world where he is the only superhero in New York it wouldn't be an option, he would be the only one people could depend on to save them. But the fact that he doesn't just quit when there are tons of superheroes in New York is just suspension of disbelief by the reader. You have to feel Peter must take care of the problem himself when he is going to make sacrifices in his life as Peter as a result.

I prefer a world where Spider-Man isn't part of the greater Marvel Universe, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have people that he can turn to.

Why can't he and Ben be Spider-Man at the same time like they used to be working together in the same place?

[Vortex85]

I prefer a world where Spider-Man isn't part of the greater Marvel Universe, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have people that he can turn to.

Why can't he and Ben be Spider-Man at the same time like they used to be working together in the same place?

That would be cool, I like Peter working with other heroes and would love to see him work with Ben again, just not all the time, because if was the default then there would always be an excuse for the other person to handle things for him when there is a conflict of interest. But yes, teamups and working with other heroes is fun, it just can't be the solution for him to make his life as Peter too easy or perfect.

[PCN24454]

That would be cool, I like Peter working with other heroes and would love to see him work with Ben again, just not all the time, because if was the default then there would always be an excuse for the other person to handle things for him when there is a conflict of interest. But yes, teamups and working with other heroes is fun, it just can't be the solution for him to make his life as Peter too easy or perfect.

I think I see the problem. You actually like soap opera-esque tropes that I hate. To me, soap operas are a cancer that infects media with cheap drama. It's what ruined the MCU, it's what ruined the Arrowverse, and it's what's ruining Spider-Man.

To me, there are lots of shows that have plenty of conflict without devolving into a soap opera, so I don't see it as an important part of the mythos.

[Agent Z]

Hm, I guess, but solving all of Spider-Man's problems by just getting another hero to fill in for him whenever he needs to do something as Peter doesn't make things very interesting for the reader, IMO. I think he works better as a solo hero for this reason.

Again, Peter actually maturing to the point he handles his issues better doesn't mean all of them are fixed. Just because he can get a hero to fill in for him sometimes doesn't mean this option will always be available.

[Lee]

Being an adult isn't having no problems; being an adult is knowing your own limits.

Peter is a really selfish person. For all his introspection, he doesn't really seem to value other people's input. That's why he always works alone.

That's why it's hard to take him seriously whenever he says that his life sucks; he didn't do everything in his power to make it not suck in the first place.

This is a fair assessment. Peter was a lonely kid who had something extraordinary happen to him that quickly turned to tragedy because of his selfishness. Ever since then he's overburdened himself to try to make amends but constantly bemoans his inability to lead a normal life.

It's more sympathetic the younger he is. When he's an adult who's been doing that for 10, 15 or 20 years, I'd personally still have empathy for him as a character, but it would be a lot more sad, a lot less fun to read about.

Why does everyone who argues this think there is no middle ground between Peter being a screw up teenager and him having no conflicts or problems in his daily life?

I've read this message board. Every time Peter makes a mistake, suffers a setback in his life (loses his job, breaks up with his girlfriend) or acts a little goofy people call him a pathetic man-child and get really nasty about whoever wrote it. People were absolutely furious that Peter would quote a line from critically acclaimed sitcom Community. How dare he. How dare our hero be so immature as to quote a silly line from a cult hit sitcom.

I will say that I think the ideal setting for Spider-Man is in college. It allows you to tackle a lot of the same problems from the high school setting (ex. missing classes, academic stress, love life drama, etc.) but also adds a lot more to work with (ex. needing to pay rent, having to balance a job to pay tuition, getting into a serious long-term relationship, etc.) while also allowing Peter to show some sense of progress and growth which I think is important. Also, having Peter be in high school kinda constrains his entire existence to a 3-4 year time period, which ends up being ridiculous and suspense of disbelief only goes so far. On the other hand, someone could theoretically be in college for a decade if they wanted to, with a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, getting a PhD, etc. So it works out a lot better timeline-wise as well. I don't think there are any downsides of having Peter be a college student since basically any storyline you could think of can work in that setting.

The college setting works well, for the reasons you've outlined. Peter did still work part-time to help May pay the bills when he was in high school though.

An advantage the high school setting has is that the environment is more relatable to grade school and middle school readers than a college campus is. There's still gym class, detention, etc. It's an aspirational age for the tween audience, which is why that demographic has always had shows like Saved by the Bell, Hannah Montana, Power Rangers, Batman Beyond and so on. You very rarely get college-set shows aimed at a tween audience, because it's two steps removed from their lives, rather than one. Peter living with Aunt May is also more directly relatable to that audience, though that can still be done in the college era.

Completely disagree about the suspension of disbelief part. It's all imaginary. James Bond couldn't realistically have had all the adventures he did from Dr. No to Die Another Day. Super-heroes exist in the same realm as James Bond, Popeye and Donald Duck. They're not fixed to time. Nobody is expected to read every single Spider-Man comic ever published and make sense of it all.

Wouldn’t it pretty much require him to quit being Spider-Man “to put his all” into his marriage?

Yes.

[Vortex85]

Lee, you talk about Spider-Man in high school like there is this huge untapped market just waiting to jump into Spider-Man and comic shops everywhere if only he be a teenager in the comics. That's simply not reality. First of all, kids these days are already into Spider-Man before they are teenagers. Kid's do not care how old he is. They care about that he looks cool, has cool powers, and fights cool villains. That's how kids fall in love with superheroes. They don't care about what adults and older teens who read comics do once they have matured.

Also, you talk about readers needing to relate to Spider-Man, so if you are going to get high school aged comic fans, Spider-Man is best in high school. Well, let's assume you are right. Let's say people would read Spider-Man more if they could most relate to him. Well that means you get customers the age of 14-18 the most and after that they age out and become disinterested in the character because they have grown out of relating to him anymore. On the other hand, if Spider-Man is an adult and you start reading comics, what is your audience age range? 18-50+ years old? Sounds like a better strategy to make more money, doesn't it? I'd take the latter if the relatability aspect is true.

Also, I don't believe the relatability aspect is nearly as important as you make it sound. Teenagers can read and enjoy adult Spider-Man (like I did as a teen personally), just as easily as an adult can read and enjoy teen Spider-Man (which I also did in my early 20s with the Ultimate line). And just to be clear, when I was 18-22 reading 616 and Ultimate before One More Day, and I was much more interested in 616 at that time at that age, because it was JMS and Peter and MJ reuniting in their marriage and that was very exciting, while Ultimate was just fun because it was Bagley and art and a remix of the Spider-Man mythos for something different.

Finally, Marvel have lots of teen heroes on the stands. Do you see teens coming into shops because they are teenagers and they can relate to them more?

[Alan2099]

I think I see the problem. You actually like soap opera-esque tropes that I hate. To me, soap operas are a cancer that infects media with cheap drama. It's what ruined the MCU, it's what ruined the Arrowverse, and it's what's ruining Spider-Man.

To me, there are lots of shows that have plenty of conflict without devolving into a soap opera, so I don't see it as an important part of the mythos.

... Seriously?

Have you ever read Marvel comics before? "Soap Opera" stuff has been there since day one of the marvel universe. Love triangles, lost lost family members, people claiming to be somebody only to be revealed to be somebody else, backstabbing, tragic dramatic deaths, complex misunderstandings over simple matters, its' all a huge part of what makes Marvel what it is, ESPECIALLY Spider-man.

[Vortex85]

I think I see the problem. You actually like soap opera-esque tropes that I hate. To me, soap operas are a cancer that infects media with cheap drama. It's what ruined the MCU, it's what ruined the Arrowverse, and it's what's ruining Spider-Man.

To me, there are lots of shows that have plenty of conflict without devolving into a soap opera, so I don't see it as an important part of the mythos.

Well, ok then. I am curious how you first got into and excited about Spider-Man in the first place, because the soap opera aspect has been in the comics heavily for just about all of it.

Maybe the cool power, cool villains, etc that I said that's how kids get into superheroes these days before they ever touch the comics?

[PCN24454]

Well, ok then. I am curious how you first got into and excited about Spider-Man in the first place, because the soap opera aspect has been in the comics heavily for just about all of it.

Maybe the cool power, cool villains, etc that I said that's how kids get into superheroes these days before they ever touch the comics?

In TAS, the soap opera was treated as the B-plot rather than the A-plot, so it didn’t feel as pervasive.

Now that I think about, that may be why I liked the episodic Spider-Man comics more.

[Vortex85]

In TAS, the soap opera was treated as the B-plot rather than the A-plot, so it didn’t feel as pervasive.

Now that I think about, that may be why I liked the episodic Spider-Man comics more.

I love the 90s TAS because I was a 10-12 years old recording every episode and that is nastolgic to me, and most cartoons the soap opera is treated as the B plot rather than A plot since cartoons are marketed to kids and young teens and at that age it's all about the power and villains and fights. But at the same time that was coming out, I was reading comics with Peter and MJ having a baby, Ben taking over as Spider-Man and all that mess, and I just felt the comics were very interesting and I continued to get them and that's really what made me into a life long fan. So I understood immediately that the soap opera was going to be very heavy in the comics side, because I saw both the cartoon and comics at the same time and saw how comics were more geared to an older audience.... it is written for adults who would not be into superheroes as much if it were minimized for just "hero fights villain and saves the day" over and over again.

It's very interesting that as you have grown up you have not taken to the soap opera aspect more, because I think most people do. I guess you are one of the exceptions.

[phonogram12]

I see why you're so jaded then. There's no point in Peter teaming up with anyone if it's just going to devolve into a soap opera of him and his teammates bickering every issue. You're right.

So basically you want the Spidey equivalent of the old Super Friends show? Where there's absolutely no conflict what so ever? Well, that doesn't sound the least bit trite or bland. Sign me up!

It's not that I want him to quit. It's that I want him to stop complaining everytime something happens. It was fine the first two or three times, but by now he should know what he's getting into.

People know what they're getting into every day they get out of bed in the morning. It doesn't mean they still don't have stuff to grumble about.

Hm, I guess, but solving all of Spider-Man's problems by just getting another hero to fill in for him whenever he needs to do something as Peter doesn't make things very interesting for the reader, IMO. I think he works better as a solo hero for this reason.

True. There is something to be said about self-reliance. And if I'm reading a book about Peter, I want the book to be about Peter bare minimum 75% of the time. Miles has his own book and if Gwen doesn't at the moment (haven't been keeping up, tbh), I'm sure she will soon.

That would be cool, I like Peter working with other heroes and would love to see him work with Ben again, just not all the time, because if was the default then there would always be an excuse for the other person to handle things for him when there is a conflict of interest. But yes, teamups and working with other heroes is fun, it just can't be the solution for him to make his life as Peter too easy or perfect.

Agreed. That's why the old Marvel Team-Up book and Avenging Spider-Man book were so great. You got to see him interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe without it impeding his solo adventures.

... Seriously?

Have you ever read Marvel comics before? "Soap Opera" stuff has been there since day one of the marvel universe. Love triangles, lost lost family members, people claiming to be somebody only to be revealed to be somebody else, backstabbing, tragic dramatic deaths, complex misunderstandings over simple matters, its' all a huge part of what makes Marvel what it is, ESPECIALLY Spider-man.

It's basically the foundation that all of Marvel (not just Spider-Man) was built on when Stan and Jack and Steve started it.

[Lee]

Lee, you talk about Spider-Man in high school like there is this huge untapped market just waiting to jump into Spider-Man and comic shops everywhere if only he be a teenager in the comics. That's simply not reality. First of all, kids these days are already into Spider-Man before they are teenagers. Kid's do not care how old he is. They care about that he looks cool, has cool powers, and fights cool villains. That's how kids fall in love with superheroes. They don't care about what adults and older teens who read comics do once they have matured.

The super-hero side can appeal to all age groups. The Peter Parker side is going to be less relatable and less appealing to kids if he's a married man with a mortgage. Even less relatable if he's a middle aged man with a kid. Even less relatable than that if he's a 60+ year old grandfather. The further away you take the character from teenage life, the less relatable and less appealing the Peter Parker drama will be to the kid/teen audience.

The vast majority of children's fiction stars characters their own age or slightly older, for exactly that reason. It's also the reason why all of the Spider-Man cartoons in the past couple of decades have featured a teenage Spider-Man. You would struggle to pitch a book about a 30 year old man to a YA publishing imprint.

Also, you talk about readers needing to relate to Spider-Man, so if you are going to get high school aged comic fans, Spider-Man is best in high school. Well, let's assume you are right. Let's say people would read Spider-Man more if they could most relate to him. Well that means you get customers the age of 14-18 the most and after that they age out and become disinterested in the character because they have grown out of relating to him anymore. On the other hand, if Spider-Man is an adult and you start reading comics, what is your audience age range? 18-50+ years old? Sounds like a better strategy to make more money, doesn't it? I'd take the latter if the relatability aspect is true.

Adults who buy Marvel comics are clearly already fine with reading things written for an adolescent audience.

Adults are able to relate to stories about teenagers because they themselves have experienced that stage of life. Even if it's not directly relevant to their current lives, they can read a story and think "I remember what that was like". If an adult no longer wants to read stories about characters whose lives they no longer directly relate to, then that's fine. They should stop reading them.

Finally, Marvel have lots of teen heroes on the stands. Do you see teens coming into shops because they are teenagers and they can relate to them more?

Those teen heroes all exist because Marvel realises that those kinds of stories appeal to an important part of the audience. Over the past few years Marvel has published smaller format graphic novel collections aimed directly at the school/YA market. Almost all of them are titles that star teen and kid characters: Ms. Marvel, Miles Morales, Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Squirrel Girl, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.

Aging the current teen heroes into their 20s would also be a stupid idea.

[Vortex85]

The super-hero side can appeal to all age groups. The Peter Parker side is going to be less relatable and less appealing to kids if he's a married man with a mortgage. Even less relatable if he's a middle aged man with a kid. Even less relatable than that if he's a 60+ year old grandfather. The further away you take the character from teenage life, the less relatable and less appealing the Peter Parker drama will be to the kid/teen audience.

The vast majority of children's fiction stars characters their own age or slightly older, for exactly that reason. It's also the reason why all of the Spider-Man cartoons in the past couple of decades have featured a teenage Spider-Man. You would struggle to pitch a book about a 30 year old man to a YA publishing imprint.



Adults who buy Marvel comics are clearly already fine with reading things written for an adolescent audience.

Adults are able to relate to stories about teenagers because they themselves have experienced that stage of life. Even if it's not directly relevant to their current lives, they can read a story and think "I remember what that was like". If an adult no longer wants to read stories about characters whose lives they no longer directly relate to, then that's fine. They should stop reading them.



Those teen heroes all exist because Marvel realises that those kinds of stories appeal to an important part of the audience. Over the past few years Marvel has published smaller format graphic novel collections aimed directly at the school/YA market. Almost all of them are titles that star teen and kid characters: Ms. Marvel, Miles Morales, Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Squirrel Girl, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.

Aging the current teen heroes into their 20s would also be a stupid idea.

Fair enough, its your opinion. But Spider-Man is already aged up and told stories for decades in his mid-20s. Vague mid-to-late 20s works. You can tell almost any story at that age. He can be a student, he can work a job, he can have relationships to the fullest, he can even be a parent. It's a very good age for flexible storytelling. Likewise, Miles and Gwen now fill the niche of the teen Spider-hero. The genie is out of the bottle with Peter Parker. Putting him back to high school is even worse than OMD and fans would complain to the end of time, the book will be dropped, and readers would not stick with the character as long. For me there that would be the end. I'd be done completely. It would also eliminate the benefit of having variety in the Spider-titles.

Adapting a younger Peter for cartoons is fine but there is no need to revert him to that in the comics. More harm than good.