Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1

    Default The Holocaust and Marvel

    A friend of mine is doing research on the depiction of the Holocaust in comics. He says that there are not too many references to the Holocaust, and especially mention of the Holocaust being the destruction of European Jewry until the early 1970s. I think there may be earlier stories in Marvel. Does any anybody know of any. I am not looking for stories after the early 1970s.
    Sandy Hausler
    DC Boards Moderator (along with The Darknight Detective (who has a much cooler name that I do))
    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ Know them. Follow them. Love them.

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    17,836

    Default

    Part of me thinks there must have been some, but probably not explicitly during the silver age. One thing I remember is a vague reference in the first issue of Sgt Fury...the captions are introducing the characters, when we get to Izzy Cohen it says something about the many deaths of his relatives in Europe at the hands of mad man.


  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Part of me thinks there must have been some, but probably not explicitly during the silver age. One thing I remember is a vague reference in the first issue of Sgt Fury...the captions are introducing the characters, when we get to Izzy Cohen it says something about the many deaths of his relatives in Europe at the hands of mad man.

    Great minds think alike. I raised this very sequence with him.
    Sandy Hausler
    DC Boards Moderator (along with The Darknight Detective (who has a much cooler name that I do))
    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ Know them. Follow them. Love them.

  4. #4
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    The Sunless Realm
    Posts
    11,146

    Default

    Here's a paper on appearances of concentration camps in Golden Age comics, which includes Timely comics.


    EARLY REPRESENTATIONS OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN GOLDEN AGE COMIC BOOKS: GRAPHIC NARRATIVES, AMERICAN SOCIETY, AND THE HOLOCAUST
    by Markus Streb

    https://www.sjoca.com/wp-content/upl...1-03-Streb.pdf
    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

  5. #5
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    Marvel never seemed to mention the Holocaust directly in their stories. For example, the Hate Monger first appears in Fantastic Four #21 with the surprise reveal when he is killed and unmasked at the end of the story, Adolph Hitler is revealed as his true identity. Reed does leave room for doubt as he states he could be one of Hitler's doubles. But we do see some vague hints at his identity in an early scene in the story.



    We also see some vague references to the fate of the Romani people in the MU when in a flashback story in the Invaders series (1975) , Victor Von Doom is seen working with another scientist on a project for Hitler. Both of them were captured (we never see the circumstances) and forced to work on a project.



    This story is later tweaked in bit by Roger Stern in Marvel Universe #2. Instead of Doom being alive during WWII, we see that he has used his time platform. He's also dressed in the first version of Doom seen in FF #5



    It's worth noting that in an interview Jack Kirby gave he talks about his experiences with serving in the infantry in WW II. He tells a story about being led to a small version of a work camp while on patrol as an advance scout in General Patton's regiment:

    "We were on patrol, constantly on patrol. On patrol you see the strangest things—things that I can tell you are beyond anything you could call normal. Once I had an old guy with a little gray beard run over to me. I can hear his thin little voice as he looked into my eyes. Tears were running down his cheek. He couldn't believe his eyes. He blinked a couple of times and he said, "You're Jewish." I said, "Yeah, I'm Jewish." So he said, "Come with me." So I ran after this little old guy with the rest of my squad behind me. It's a long road; I remember some farm buildings and a factory. It could have been an ambush, but we figured that it probably wasn't—I mean, what would the Germans be doing with this little gray beard? Then we came to this walled-in place, this stockade, and he pointed. "There, there," he said. I stopped. German guards were leaving by the dozens; I could see them jumping over the wall and getting out of there the best way they could. They knew that I am a Scout, they knew that this big division was right behind me. I was standing there looking at them as they yelled out 'f*ck you' in English. They all said that by that time. They thought it was a big insult, but I don't think they really knew what the word meant.

    There they went, over the side, and then my buddies and me opened up the stockades. I thought I was going to see Prisoners of War, you know, some of our guys that got caught in some of the early fighting—but what I saw would pin you to the spot like it did me. Most of these people were Polish; Polish Jews who were working in some of the nearby factories. I don't remember if the place really had a name, it was a smaller camp—not like Auschwitz, but it was horrible just the same. Just horrible. There were mostly women and some men; they looked like they hadn't eaten for I don't know how long. They were scrawny. Their clothes were all tattered and dirty. The Germans didn't give a sh*t for anything. They just left the place; just like leaving a dog behind to starve. I was standing there for a long time just watching, thinking to myself, "What do I do?" Just thinking about it makes my stomach turn. All I could say was, "Oh, God."

  6. #6
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    It took a while before Marvel became less timid about mentioning the Holocaust. When Chris Claremont expanded on the character of Magneto in the X-Men series back in the 1980s we learn that he is Jewish. There is this flashback scene from Classic X-Men #12 (1987) that places him in Auschwitz.




    Then later in 2009, Marvel published a mini series under the Marvel Knights imprint that goes into further details of Magneto's early years. In order to survive he became a Sonderkommando at the camp.




  7. #7

    Default

    It may be hard to show the Holocaust in a comic that sticks to the rules of the CCA, such as:
    * Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited. Scenes of brutal torture, excessive and unnecessary knife and gunplay, physical agony, gory and gruesome crime shall be eliminated.
    * All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
    * Profanity, obscenity, smut, vulgarity, or words or symbols which have acquired undesirable meanings are forbidden.
    * Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible

  8. #8
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    It may be hard to show the Holocaust in a comic that sticks to the rules of the CCA, such as:
    * Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited. Scenes of brutal torture, excessive and unnecessary knife and gunplay, physical agony, gory and gruesome crime shall be eliminated.
    * All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
    * Profanity, obscenity, smut, vulgarity, or words or symbols which have acquired undesirable meanings are forbidden.
    * Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible
    It would have been particularly hard to find a comic with an accurate depictions of the holocaust since the opening post wants comics no older than the early 1970s. Marvel was still following the CCA at that time but they dropped out around 2001. DC eventually broke with the CCA in 2011 and it no longer exists.

    Even in film I can't recall many that used a concentration camps as part of the setting. I think Spielberg's Schindler's List was the first to be very graphic in it's portrayal .

    As I pointed out in my examples, the references to the atrocities committed by the Nazis are only vaguely mentioned.

  9. #9
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    The Sunless Realm
    Posts
    11,146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    It may be hard to show the Holocaust in a comic that sticks to the rules of the CCA, such as:
    * Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited. Scenes of brutal torture, excessive and unnecessary knife and gunplay, physical agony, gory and gruesome crime shall be eliminated.
    * All scenes of horror, excessive bloodshed, gory or gruesome crimes, depravity, lust, sadism, masochism shall not be permitted.
    * Profanity, obscenity, smut, vulgarity, or words or symbols which have acquired undesirable meanings are forbidden.
    * Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible
    The CCA wasn't around at the time the OP is asking about (before the 1970s). Almost all of those things were in the Golden Age comics. There's a window, during the first decade of the Silver Age, however, which was under the CCA, but they could still do stories that had the camps, or people who survived the camps -- just not in graphic detail.

    I haven't read the Sgt Fury books, however, and that seems the most likely place for it.
    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

  10. #10

    Default

    Actually, yes, there were some special cases like that of Spider-Man and drugs, but the CCA was still in force for a good time.

    Note that the Hate Monger never mentions jews or any specific people, just "foreigners" and unspecific terms like "those we hate". Same for the Sons of the Serpent, based on the KKK. The CCA would not allow it, even if those things were done by the villain. No displays of religious or racial hate, period.

  11. #11
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    The CCA wasn't around at the time the OP is asking about (before the 1970s). Almost all of those things were in the Golden Age comics. There's a window, during the first decade of the Silver Age, however, which was under the CCA, but they could still do stories that had the camps, or people who survived the camps -- just not in graphic detail.

    I haven't read the Sgt Fury books, however, and that seems the most likely place for it.
    Have to correct you there... the Comics Code Authoriity was founded in 1954 after the publication of Seduction of the Innocent by Dr. Frederick Wertham and testimony by various witnesses was given in Congress. You have to remember this was also the Joe McCarthy era. The main target was EC comics but eventually DC and Marvel would cancel or curtail their superhero and monster comics.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    17,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Have to correct you there... the Comics Code Authoriity was founded in 1954 after the publication of Seduction of the Innocent by Dr. Frederick Wertham and testimony by various witnesses was given in Congress. You have to remember this was also the Joe McCarthy era. The main target was EC comics but eventually DC and Marvel would cancel or curtail their superhero and monster comics.
    Speaking of EC there's a semi-famous story about The Holocaust called "The Master Race" published in Impact and 1955 ( ironically after the CCA forced EC to cancel their horror and sci-fi titles.


  13. #13
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    That's an interesting find! I have never heard of Impact before but then I really don't know much about that era. It seemed like a sort of Dark Age for the industry.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    17,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    That's an interesting find! I have never heard of Impact before but then I really don't know much about that era. It seemed like a sort of Dark Age for the industry.
    A number of companies who did other types comics were able to adjust, it was mainly EC Comics ( and their imitators ) who were hit the hardest. Because of the Comics Codes they were more or less forced to cancel all their most popular books ( Tales From the Crypt, Weird Science, etc) except for Mad Comic Book. EC did a whole new line of comics that were more watered down and the whole line failed commercially ( Impact was one of these titles). I don't think any of them lasted more than 4 or 5 issues.

    EC basically saved themselves by changing Mad Comic Book into Mad Magazine where they didn't have to be concerned about the CCA.

  15. #15
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    19,024

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    A number of companies who did other types comics were able to adjust, it was mainly EC Comics ( and their imitators ) who were hit the hardest. Because of the Comics Codes they were more or less forced to cancel all their most popular books ( Tales From the Crypt, Weird Science, etc) except for Mad Comic Book. EC did a whole new line of comics that were more watered down and the whole line failed commercially ( Impact was one of these titles). I don't think any of them lasted more than 4 or 5 issues.

    EC basically saved themselves by changing Mad Comic Book into Mad Magazine where they didn't have to be concerned about the CCA.
    I didn't realize that Mad magazine was originally a EC book. Learn something new every day!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •