Lost but not forgotten: Hank Pym Appreciation 2022

[jwatson]

I don't think the issue can be fixed either and not because people or characters don't deserve forgiveness but because the situation hits home so much that there will always be someone in the vicinity of working on hank who will put their personal experience or view onto the character and someone out there in a place to react to it the way some feel maybe the reaction should be (In essence writers or creatives seeing that abusive person they know be it father, mother, sibling and identifying what they don't think deserves to be forgiven or they can't forgive with hank). This is a situation where no amount of talking it through on panel will make a difference this has to be a blunt force retcon in the sense that what is created to make it not hank or not hank anymore has to be so strong that even those who are in essence right about what should be the reaction to abuse have no choice to reach the logic that the canon is saying this didn't happen for this particular reason or this history was changed because this happened and it has to be direct enough that in a conversation it's not an interpretation but a fact that "hank hit his wife." and you can go "Well hank isn't a abuser." So i don't think it's impossible.

[jwatson]

Thinking a tad further an exercise from marvel could help as well. anyone sitting down to write hank needs to imagine a mistake they made in life, like a true mistake and imagine that now that follows you everywhere you go, everything you did before it, your education, the people you helped, it all pales in comparison to that one moment and no matter where you go in life or what you do, or who you become anyone at any moment can sit down and adjust your narrative and say your that moment again.

[Chris0013]

Had hope there for a minute spoilers:

that when Scott mentioned Hank would have used the All Father power to free himself from Ultron...but nope...didn't happen.

end of spoilers

[jwatson]

Just read issue four of this and this was great. I think the voice that was off last issue was mainly the captions ,MAVL's voice . but this was a solid landing and then some. At the end of the day the simple truth is AntMen *$()k up and try to do the right thing. But guess what, in the grand scheme of it this i really do think it affirms my thoughts before i read this, but it highlights why is hank crime so damning when Antmen have done much worse, saved less, and been forgiven more.

Though lowkey it also makes me wonder, i wonder if someone has purposefully gone out of their way to make the worst antman possible to see if this theory would hold. lol. Definitely looking forward to the wasp mini after this.

[Triniking1234]

Loved #4. This series was pretty well done.

spoilers:

Since the aging on Ultron was undone, most likely Hank Pym can be resurrected.

end of spoilers

Can't wait for Wasp mini next year.

[Celtic1967]

Really liked this series, looking forward to the Wasp mini. I think we'll see Hank come back soon, either in the Wasp mini or in whatever series spins out of that.

[Kurt Busiek]

It doesn't help that part of the reason the slap is as infamous as it is is because it happened on a time when heroes weren't (intentionally) written to be assholes who would do such things.

And Shooter's idea was to turn Hank into a villain, more or less permanently. This was also the idea behind having Quicksilver do a heel turn during the Englehart FF.

Neither of them stuck -- Hank just became a permanently broken character and Quicksilver's behavior got written off somehow (in part because he's always been portrayed as very capable of being a belligerent jerk).

I think what was missed there was that while people like to see villain-to-hero changes, because that's a story of redemption, they don't enjoy hero-to-villain stories anywhere near as much, because they're innately tragic, and tragedies work best when they have endings. In an ongoing serial medium, they just piss off the longtime fans, and don't seem to attract new fans who think "Oh boy, I want to see stories where Evil Yellowjacket tries to take over the world!"

They put the former hero into a position where the narrative (and audience) urge is to see the character struggle and redeem themselves, because that's a heroic narrative.

But sometimes the character gets broken too badly, and you wind up with a situation where they're not a villain but any redemption arcs don't last.

You gotta keep your eye on the short term and the long term at the same time...

kdb

[Digifiend]

Well, if you follow the route this series has gone down, we have 3 Wasps from different eras, plus a potential future iteration.

Janet
Hank Pym
Nadia

So there’s room there to build on Hank, setting up for a new Ant Man and The Wasp series?

Yeah, though I don't think they'll be in order this time, as we've seen two covers - Janet's and Nadia's. Maybe Hank's was held back to issue 3 as his involvement would be a spoiler? Though if so, solicits will reveal it before Wasp #1 is out anyway.

[Mary Jay]

Yeah, though I don't think they'll be in order this time, as we've seen two covers - Janet's and Nadia's. Maybe Hank's was held back to issue 3 as his involvement would be a spoiler? Though if so, solicits will reveal it before Wasp #1 is out anyway.

Marvel has been known to hold back on showing the covers of issues before. But I still think that this Wasp series will mainly focus on Janet. She deserves to have some spotlight anyway She's turning 60 also after all

[Mary Jay]

I don't think the issue can be fixed either and not because people or characters don't deserve forgiveness but because the situation hits home so much that there will always be someone in the vicinity of working on hank who will put their personal experience or view onto the character and someone out there in a place to react to it the way some feel maybe the reaction should be (In essence writers or creatives seeing that abusive person they know be it father, mother, sibling and identifying what they don't think deserves to be forgiven or they can't forgive with hank). This is a situation where no amount of talking it through on panel will make a difference this has to be a blunt force retcon in the sense that what is created to make it not hank or not hank anymore has to be so strong that even those who are in essence right about what should be the reaction to abuse have no choice to reach the logic that the canon is saying this didn't happen for this particular reason or this history was changed because this happened and it has to be direct enough that in a conversation it's not an interpretation but a fact that "hank hit his wife." and you can go "Well hank isn't a abuser." So i don't think it's impossible.

People can't make the difference between the main universe and the Ultimates universe... you think they're going to go along with a retcon?

I don't think retcons are the way to go. They could have retconned it when Hank was replaced by a Skrull, but they decided not to go that way. I'm glad for this, as it would have basically erased most of Hank's history of the last 40 years.

[Mary Jay]

Marvel doesn't create anything, of course. [Other than legally.]

People created it -- specifically, Jim Shooter and Bob Hall, in 1981, and the editor, Jim Salicrup, let it go through, possibly because the book was running very late, possibly because Shooter was the boss.

None of those people are at Marvel any more.

Other people tried to move past it, to have Hank address his demons and recover -- among them Roger Stern, Steve Englehart and me -- but through all that there were fans raging at all of us that what Hank did was unforgivable. And sure enough, the day came that each of us wasn't working on the books any more, and other people -- notably Mark Millar (in ULTIMATES) and Chuck Austen (in AVENGERS proper) undid everything we did. And other creators have tried to approach the issue, and others have objected, and on it goes.

And during that whole time, fans still feel very strongly about it.

So "Marvel" has, at times, been willing to move past it, and other times have not -- but that's not because the Marvel of 1981 is still there, refusing to forget. It's because who gets to make these decisions changes over time, and as long as there's someone who wants to bring it back up, it can come back up, regardless of whether Marvel was willing to move past it the month previous.

For my part, I think that no matter who tries to put the issue to rest, there'll inevitably be someone who wants to tell a story about the evils of domestic violence, and it'll come back. So I think Hank's a ruined character at this point, because there are enough fans (and creators) who don't want to move past it, so any attempts to do so will be temporary.

Me, I'd be tempted to make it an editorial rule. Don't blow up the moon, don't bring uncle Ben back (at least not permanently), don't bring up Hank slapping Jan. Leave that stuff alone -- stop damaging a founding Avenger.

But even then, whoever made that rule would oneday not be at Marvel (or not be in charge of those characters) and someone would bring it back.

I think he's irredeemably broken. The only way that might change is if the MCU presented Hank and Jan in such a positive light that it changed the public's viewpoint on them on such a vast scale that the comics fans and creators who won't let it go would be outweighed by a larger group who wanted them together.

But even that might not work -- or not work permanently.

The company name stays the same, but the people who make choices keep changing.

I wish him the best of luck, but I bet there'll be someone who comes along next and messes it all up again.

kdb

This makes me so sad to read Mr. Busiek, you are the best! Your Avengers run made me a fan for life, and the voice you gave Hank is for me the standard on how he should be written. The "real' Hank is Busiek's Hank in my mind. That's where any writer should start from in my opinion.

Austen's illogical hate for the character undid YEARS of positive development for Hank, without respect for what had been written before. This still gets me mad, 20 years and more after the fact. Not that long before that, Hank had come in 2nd place in a poll of the favourite Avengers, after Captain America. The fans who were raging were probably a very loud minority (or not even reading the Avengers book)...

Sam Humphries's Avengers A.I. may not have caught on as much as I would have liked, and had its problems (like the art...) but it did try to move on and show Hank in a more positive light. It also finally gave officially the diagnosis that a lot of people already suspected. Haters now say that the fans use his disorder as an excuse for what he had done, when it's really not. It's simply an explanation. Hank himself never tried to find excuses, but has always owned his mistake. Christos Gage also made a good case of showing Hank as a true hero in Avengers Academy. Basically, haters don't have much reason to go on about Hank being a bad man, since he has spent all his publication history since 1982 at redeeming himself. If only they could just enjoy the characters they like and leave us Pym Pals alone to also enjoy the character WE like, that would be great. And if they're fans of Spider-Man, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Wolverine or Punisher... they're just a bunch of hypocrits.

In this era of "representation matters", I hate to see that mental illness still carries a stigma so negative. As someone who suffers from depression and anxiety, I find comfort in reading stories about someone who struggles with life but still manages to make it through, one day at a time, and tries to make the world a better place for others. Even when he feels the entire world is against him.

[Commissioner Wayne]

Had hope there for a minute spoilers:

that when Scott mentioned Hank would have used the All Father power to free himself from Ultron...but nope...didn't happen.

end of spoilers

So close. We’re so close. Between that and:

spoilers:

Dr. Asghar “develops an obsession with somehow redeeming the inventor of Ultron, Henry Pym”

end of spoilers

There was such a focus on Hank in this issue and it was extremely well written. If after whatever Ewing has planned after this doesn’t brink Hank back, I will not only disappointed; I will be shocked. I can’t help but feel he is setting it up.

And I loved the little nod to Avengers EMH by showing a few background images of how Hank appeared as both Ant-Man and YJ in the series.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

This makes me so sad to read Mr. Busiek, you are the best! Your Avengers run made me a fan for life, and the voice you gave Hank is for me the standard on how he should be written. The "real' Hank is Busiek's Hank in my mind. That's where any writer should start from in my opinion.

Austen's illogical hate for the character undid YEARS of positive development for Hank, without respect for what had been written before. This still gets me mad, 20 years and more after the fact. Not that long before that, Hank had come in 2nd place in a poll of the favourite Avengers, after Captain America. The fans who were raging were probably a very loud minority (or not even reading the Avengers book)...

Sam Humphries's Avengers A.I. may not have caught on as much as I would have liked, and had its problems (like the art...) but it did try to move on and show Hank in a more positive light. It also finally gave officially the diagnosis that a lot of people already suspected. Haters now say that the fans use his disorder as an excuse for what he had done, when it's really not. It's simply an explanation. Hank himself never tried to find excuses, but has always owned his mistake. Christos Gage also made a good case of showing Hank as a true hero in Avengers Academy. Basically, haters don't have much reason to go on about Hank being a bad man, since he has spent all his publication history since 1982 at redeeming himself. If only they could just enjoy the characters they like and leave us Pym Pals alone to also enjoy the character WE like, that would be great. And if they're fans of Spider-Man, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Wolverine or Punisher... they're just a bunch of hypocrits.

In this era of "representation matters", I hate to see that mental illness still carries a stigma so negative. As someone who suffers from depression and anxiety, I find comfort in reading stories about someone who struggles with life but still manages to make it through, one day at a time, and tries to make the world a better place for others. Even when he feels the entire world is against him.

Well said Mary Jay. I think Jan will get her spotlight without Hank detracting from that and she deserves it. My question is will there be something after? Al Is a top notch writer who probably has a lot of say with Marvel editorial. I think if he wants to he can continue to write Hank and the rest of them in a positive light. Who cares about the haters. Simple rule. If you don’t like something then don’t read it. I enjoyed this mini. It was great to see all three Ant-Men. I even like Eric now and he’s been a pretty suspect character himself. Scott has been no angel either. Some of us like reading about flawed characters. Anyways I have my fingers crossed that Hank will return for good in a positive light.

Hats off to Kurt Busiek as well for all of your insight. You are awesome!

[Chris0013]

Well said Mary Jay. I think Jan will get her spotlight without Hank detracting from that and she deserves it. My question is will there be something after? Al Is a top notch writer who probably has a lot of say with Marvel editorial. I think if he wants to he can continue to write Hank and the rest of them in a positive light. Who cares about the haters. Simple rule. If you don’t like something then don’t read it. I enjoyed this mini. It was great to see all three Ant-Men. I even like Eric now and he’s been a pretty suspect character himself. Scott has been no angel either. Some of us like reading about flawed characters. Anyways I have my fingers crossed that Hank will return for good in a positive light.

Hats off to Kurt Busiek as well for all of your insight. You are awesome!

I think Eric had a pretty serious redemption arc over his time in comics. From scumbag in Irredeemable to dying trying to save a child in Secret Avengers.

I am hoping the Wasp series is just focused on Jan. Give her a serious current story without all the jumping through time and showing everyone who was (or will be) Wasp.

[chamber-music]

I don't really get why Marvel don't just put a editorial mandate to not mention Hank hitting Janet unless they have something new or interesting to add to that narrative. I'm sure Marvel doesn't want to overly dictate what their talent can and can't write but sometimes it is better for the characters if they do draw a line under certain things.

For some writers it has just been an albatross around Hank Pym characters neck that has used to make him a punching bag. It would be far better to just move on and tell new stories and create new insights into the character rather than keep travelling the same WELL worn territory. Spider-Man is not defined by hitting Mary Jane because other writers have created new interesting stories about Peter Parker's life as a superhero.