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  1. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commissioner Wayne View Post
    Did I miss something? When Hank first comes to after being captured, he makes a big deal out of trying to keep his captors occupied so they don’t focus on learning his secret ID. But on the very next page, The Protector openly calls him “Pym” in front of everyone (even while the Window Washer still seems to be pondering it!) and not a mention is made of it…
    Good catch. I just went back and read that again. The Window Washer obviously isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. The guy has a squirt bottle for a weapon.

  2. #212
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commissioner Wayne View Post
    Did I miss something? When Hank first comes to after being captured, he makes a big deal out of trying to keep his captors occupied so they don’t focus on learning his secret ID. But on the very next page, The Protector openly calls him “Pym” in front of everyone (even while the Window Washer still seems to be pondering it!) and not a mention is made of it…
    Yeah, I caught that too, and found it a little odd. But I chalked it up to the writer's mistake that slip through the editor. Or the Protector is not who we think he is... I have no idea
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  3. #213
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    So i just read antman and i have to say it took me through a myriad of emotions.

    First i find the MAVL narrative experience to be a true joy. I found the idea of it absolutely hilarious but at the same time i think it works for the overthinkers and the underthinkers to pace you like "yes, i'm aware, but there is more." so while some may have foujnd it offensive or talking down to them, and i feel maybe a small percentage might which is why i am mentioning it it felt more like allowing you to enjoy the story. Like playing mario kart with the safety controls on, something i wouldn't do but definitely benefits many. lol.

    So from a bit of funny to i actually felt myself getting sad for hank and actually felt like he was stuck in time. I mean there is no doubt Hank Pym has done some good things but in a lot of ways he is the absolute worst qualities of a man at that time, perhaps a man of this time, but there is just something there that makes you want to root for him. I mean it was telling that even though Wasp just wanted to watch a movie he had so much machismo or gall that he just couldn't let it go, he "derserved" to go after someone and at that point are you really a hero. I mean you can be anti, you can be whatever but you can't be hank in the way i think people see him or in the way Jan use to see him and perhaps that hit is what took it to the next level by brining it to the forefront and it just went rock bottom from there but i do think for hank to move on and i could be wrong what i felt this issue was saying in how simplistic and straight forward and dated on purpose it was was that in order for hank to ever be any kind of hero we really have to see what sort of putz it is but if it's going to be dragged out then it's time to answer the question is he hero or is he villain because he can't just always be a victim of tragic circumstances when his actions are what leads to them in some cases.

    the Wasp and Scott lang scene was cute. Really enjoyed the art and pacing and again the narration was fun.

    I have a lot of thoughts spinning in my head from this issue but i'll stop there and wait for more. Looking forward to issue 2 and if Hank will not be necessarily redeemed because no one can make up for the past but will he be a better person rather than a better sacrifice or martyr in limbo.
    I have to say I really enjoyed the first issue! It really felt like I was reading an old TTA story. The writing, the art, even the thought bubbles were spot on IMO. I read that some people judged Hank to be "petty" or "show that he could never be a true hero" when he spoilers:
    went after O'Grady in the cinema
    end of spoilers but I just found it hilarious. A lot of people would have done the same, given the opportunity! He once hung by the coats on a lamp post some bums who were making snarky comments at Jan on the street (and that was funny as hell!) . So this fits. It sort of addresses what you implied in your long paragraph (breathe between sentences, friend a few commas and periods never hurt to help understand ) I don't see how "Hank is the absolute worst qualities of a man", at that time or later on. The old TTA never showed him as an undeserving hero, he was always there for the ordinary folk. Granted, that was written with the mentality of the 60s, with its lot of sexism and slight condescending towards women in general, but nothing worse than, say, the Fantastic Four at that time. I'm not sure I really understand all that you mean, because you seem to imply that Hank was never redeemed (I suggest reading Busiek's Avengers run) or that his character was a complete mess ever since the slap... in 1982. Since then, there's been the WCA, Busiek, Avengers Academy, Avengers A.I., only to name a few. I dunno, I feel like we're not even talking about the same character... But hey, different people interpret things differently

    And the " there is just something there that makes you want to root for him", I'm suspecting this was the intended goal for Ewing, and maybe even Marvel in general. If they ever have a plan to bring him back, it would be a good thing that casual readers, or people who only heard of him from the Net or from haters, have a better opinion of him moving forward
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  4. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I have to say I really enjoyed the first issue! It really felt like I was reading an old TTA story. The writing, the art, even the thought bubbles were spot on IMO. I read that some people judged Hank to be "petty" or "show that he could never be a true hero" when he spoilers:
    went after O'Grady in the cinema
    end of spoilers but I just found it hilarious. A lot of people would have done the same, given the opportunity! He once hung by the coats on a lamp post some bums who were making snarky comments at Jan on the street (and that was funny as hell!) . So this fits. It sort of addresses what you implied in your long paragraph (breathe between sentences, friend a few commas and periods never hurt to help understand ) I don't see how "Hank is the absolute worst qualities of a man", at that time or later on. The old TTA never showed him as an undeserving hero, he was always there for the ordinary folk. Granted, that was written with the mentality of the 60s, with its lot of sexism and slight condescending towards women in general, but nothing worse than, say, the Fantastic Four at that time. I'm not sure I really understand all that you mean, because you seem to imply that Hank was never redeemed (I suggest reading Busiek's Avengers run) or that his character was a complete mess ever since the slap... in 1982. Since then, there's been the WCA, Busiek, Avengers Academy, Avengers A.I., only to name a few. I dunno, I feel like we're not even talking about the same character... But hey, different people interpret things differently

    And the " there is just something there that makes you want to root for him", I'm suspecting this was the intended goal for Ewing, and maybe even Marvel in general. If they ever have a plan to bring him back, it would be a good thing that casual readers, or people who only heard of him from the Net or from haters, have a better opinion of him moving forward
    Very well said Mary Jay. Using the FF4 as an example is spot on. That was the times. It can be erased. It can be changed. It can’t be revised. I hope Ewing has been given the green light to relaunch Hank back into the mainstream.

    You mention Kurt Busiek. I wish Marvel would give him back the Avengers and a few other titles. He is still one of the best writers Marvel has ever had. I thoroughly enjoyed his Marvels run. His Astro City has been brilliant. His Avengers run speaks volumes and cements his legacy as one of the best writers Marvel has ever had.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    Very well said Mary Jay. Using the FF4 as an example is spot on. That was the times. It can be erased. It can be changed. It can’t be revised. I hope Ewing has been given the green light to relaunch Hank back into the mainstream.

    You mention Kurt Busiek. I wish Marvel would give him back the Avengers and a few other titles. He is still one of the best writers Marvel has ever had. I thoroughly enjoyed his Marvels run. His Astro City has been brilliant. His Avengers run speaks volumes and cements his legacy as one of the best writers Marvel has ever had.
    Thanks Pretty much all the comic books written in the 60s and early 70s suffer from being the reflexion of their time. What we find deplorable now was only the normality back then. Good thing I wasn't born yet! LOL

    Kurt Busiek's run was amazing, and his "Avengers Forever" is to me probably the best story ever published by Marvel. I fully enjoyed reading his run, and of course would love for him to write some more. But everybody has to move on to other things at some point, and I understand that. Plus, I was so thrilled when Mark Waid (one of my favourite writers) was assigned to the main Avengers book, but it ended up being very disappointing. It felt to me that he had constraints for the book and was "imposed" who would be part of the team. It ended up feeling like he wanted to write something else and that his heart wasn't in it. I would hate for Kurt Busiek to suffer the same fate... but I don't think he would take the gig if he couldn't do what he wanted and put up the team he wants

    As for Ewing, it looks promising for the Ant-Man mini. I don't want to think further than that, at the risk of being once more disappointed.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  6. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I have to say I really enjoyed the first issue! It really felt like I was reading an old TTA story. The writing, the art, even the thought bubbles were spot on IMO. I read that some people judged Hank to be "petty" or "show that he could never be a true hero" when he spoilers:
    went after O'Grady in the cinema
    end of spoilers but I just found it hilarious. A lot of people would have done the same, given the opportunity! He once hung by the coats on a lamp post some bums who were making snarky comments at Jan on the street (and that was funny as hell!) . So this fits. It sort of addresses what you implied in your long paragraph (breathe between sentences, friend a few commas and periods never hurt to help understand ) I don't see how "Hank is the absolute worst qualities of a man", at that time or later on. The old TTA never showed him as an undeserving hero, he was always there for the ordinary folk. Granted, that was written with the mentality of the 60s, with its lot of sexism and slight condescending towards women in general, but nothing worse than, say, the Fantastic Four at that time. I'm not sure I really understand all that you mean, because you seem to imply that Hank was never redeemed (I suggest reading Busiek's Avengers run) or that his character was a complete mess ever since the slap... in 1982. Since then, there's been the WCA, Busiek, Avengers Academy, Avengers A.I., only to name a few. I dunno, I feel like we're not even talking about the same character... But hey, different people interpret things differently

    And the " there is just something there that makes you want to root for him", I'm suspecting this was the intended goal for Ewing, and maybe even Marvel in general. If they ever have a plan to bring him back, it would be a good thing that casual readers, or people who only heard of him from the Net or from haters, have a better opinion of him moving forward
    I really enjoyed the first issue as well. I found it sort of funny at first too but then i remembered Hank is suppose to be a hero and i couldn't say that this wasn't in character for Hank and based on your post you couldn't either. And that's why i say the worst qualities, he felt entitled, like he was owed a moment to basically make someone else life harder or worse when he is the one with the super powers who is calling himself a hero and that is the problem with hank. I like hank, i think everyone likes hank but hank so he is never the hank that he truly is, the one people likes because he doesn't believe it is enough and he acts out and trys to garner the respect he thinks no one is giving him but hank doesn't respect himself. Someone who needs to bring someone down just because that person irritated him, also mind you the first thing hank did after leaving the theatre room was find the time to flirt with the theatre attendant when he had a woman, and one that was trying to not only uplift him but spend time with him. because of his selfish moment he put himself in danger and he put Jan in danger and if one can say "that's just hank." then that is a problem. Can you really doubt some of his behaviors if that is his character. And that's what made me sad. I always just focused on the moment and how it defined hank but i'm realizing that moment was a part of his fundamental character because when you feel entitled to things or emotion or respect, how far will you go to obtain then or to make others recognize what you feel your owed. I think this story puts both the fans and hank in a position where we really have to look at the character and see where it goes. "redemption" isn't enough. You can save someone and maybe "redeem" yourself in their eyes but if that was really the goal are you really looking to be a better person or feel better when you think about a person you've hurt.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  7. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    Very well said Mary Jay. Using the FF4 as an example is spot on. That was the times. It can be erased. It can be changed. It can’t be revised. I hope Ewing has been given the green light to relaunch Hank back into the mainstream.

    You mention Kurt Busiek. I wish Marvel would give him back the Avengers and a few other titles. He is still one of the best writers Marvel has ever had. I thoroughly enjoyed his Marvels run. His Astro City has been brilliant. His Avengers run speaks volumes and cements his legacy as one of the best writers Marvel has ever had.
    The marvels was pretty good but i do wish it was more main stream in the universe. I tried the Astro city stuff but i got lost on what waa new, what was a reprint and felt overwhelmed but i would love for Busiek Marvels team to turn into Marvel's Avengers and get a relaunch.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.
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  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    The marvels was pretty good but i do wish it was more main stream in the universe. I tried the Astro city stuff but i got lost on what waa new, what was a reprint and felt overwhelmed but i would love for Busiek Marvels team to turn into Marvel's Avengers and get a relaunch.
    It was supposed to be an ongoing but Marvel stopped it at 12. This would be an interesting Avengers team. Who knows. Aaron’s run is done in November. Maybe Busiek will become the new Avengers writer. I would be ecstatic. I’m not holding my breath though. Kevin Schumer was an interesting character with all the gadgets he got from his uncle the Tinkerer. So was Aarkus, Aero, Powderkeg and Warbird. The Avengers needs a new fresh line up.

  9. #219
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    The best we can hope for is a more Busiek-esque direction for the line and characters...

  10. #220
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    I'm also greatly enjoying Busiek's The Marvels. I've read the first TPB, and anxiously awaiting the second. The line-up is really cool.

    Peace

  11. #221
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I really enjoyed the first issue as well. I found it sort of funny at first too but then i remembered Hank is suppose to be a hero and i couldn't say that this wasn't in character for Hank and based on your post you couldn't either. And that's why i say the worst qualities, he felt entitled, like he was owed a moment to basically make someone else life harder or worse when he is the one with the super powers who is calling himself a hero and that is the problem with hank. I like hank, i think everyone likes hank but hank so he is never the hank that he truly is, the one people likes because he doesn't believe it is enough and he acts out and trys to garner the respect he thinks no one is giving him but hank doesn't respect himself. Someone who needs to bring someone down just because that person irritated him, also mind you the first thing hank did after leaving the theatre room was find the time to flirt with the theatre attendant when he had a woman, and one that was trying to not only uplift him but spend time with him. because of his selfish moment he put himself in danger and he put Jan in danger and if one can say "that's just hank." then that is a problem. Can you really doubt some of his behaviors if that is his character. And that's what made me sad. I always just focused on the moment and how it defined hank but i'm realizing that moment was a part of his fundamental character because when you feel entitled to things or emotion or respect, how far will you go to obtain then or to make others recognize what you feel your owed. I think this story puts both the fans and hank in a position where we really have to look at the character and see where it goes. "redemption" isn't enough. You can save someone and maybe "redeem" yourself in their eyes but if that was really the goal are you really looking to be a better person or feel better when you think about a person you've hurt.
    I'll just say that you interpret what you read in a very different way than I do. Like I said, it's part of life to have different visions. I can't argue with you, cause who am I to say your vision is the "wrong" one?

    I will say that, as a long time fan of Hank, having read a lot of stories about him or that he was part of, I don't recognize him at all in your comment.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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  12. #222
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I'll just say that you interpret what you read in a very different way than I do. Like I said, it's part of life to have different visions. I can't argue with you, cause who am I to say your vision is the "wrong" one?

    I will say that, as a long time fan of Hank, having read a lot of stories about him or that he was part of, I don't recognize him at all in your comment.
    I just read the first issue and recognised the Stan Lee writing style, and even some Don Heck artistic style used to immerse the reader into the 1960’s comic experience. I thought it was very well done in that sense.

    Discussing the Hank Pym we see here, I am reminded how much Janet was frustrated with Hanks antics during this period of Hanks personality, in that it was patriarchal towards females. But I never read any notion of Hank having an inferior complex at all right up till he left the Avengers in Avengers #15, much later than when this issue was set. To my mind Hank was self-confident, and didn’t try to punish others to prove anything.

    But this interpretation by Al Ewing made me feel uncomfortable about Hank Pym for some reason. It didn’t feel like Hank was in control of his emotions when he stalked that prankster in the theatre. I feel Ewing tried to show Pym’s personality defects too early in Hanks career, in this flashback story. I thought Hanks capture and torture was reasonable if 4 villains ganged up on him, and knew how to negate his ant communication ability. It was also reasonable Hank had a back door plan to contact Janet and have her rescue him in the Nick of time. I don’t blame Hanks personality to stalk the kid as blame for his capture either. That’s just how Hank Pym is. But there was something in the slinking off to confront the kid in the theatre that didn’t ring true. I would have just made Hank retrieve his helmet, and get the ants to swarm the kid in his seat. That’s what I thought Hank Pym would do.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-08-2022 at 09:05 PM.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Discussing the Hank Pym we see here, I am reminded how much Janet was frustrated with Hanks antics during this period of Hanks personality, in that it was patriarchal towards females. But I never read any notion of Hank having an inferior complex at all right up till he left the Avengers in Avengers #15, much later than when this issue was set. To my mind Hank was self-confident, and didn’t try to punish others to prove anything.
    In his own stories, Hank never displayed any sign of an inferiority complex or self-esteem issues, at all.

    But, I'd have to concede, plotzing him onto a team with Tony Stark, Thor and the Hulk, would give just about anyone a complex... There's some egos that go to 11, right there. (Even if none of them started out insufferable egomaniacs, in time both Tony and Thor have flirted with that characterization, and, when he's not Banner, Hulk's never been partial to hiding his light under a bushel.)

    That said, I never got to read this one, because my comic shop didn't order enough copies of #1 for all the people who wanted one and I showed up a day late (and now they apparently can't get any more from the distributor). It's on my pull-list now, but I didn't know it was coming out so soon, and didn't have it on the list in time for #1.

    On the one hand, there was demand for it, which is neat. On the other hand, the distributor and comic shop order-guy didn't think it was gonna sell and didn't order enough copies. So, good news and bad.

  14. #224
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I just read the first issue and recognised the Stan Lee writing style, and even some Don Heck artistic style used to immerse the reader into the 1960’s comic experience. I thought it was very well done in that sense.

    Discussing the Hank Pym we see here, I am reminded how much Janet was frustrated with Hanks antics during this period of Hanks personality, in that it was patriarchal towards females. But I never read any notion of Hank having an inferior complex at all right up till he left the Avengers in Avengers #15, much later than when this issue was set. To my mind Hank was self-confident, and didn’t try to punish others to prove anything.

    But this interpretation by Al Ewing made me feel uncomfortable about Hank Pym for some reason. It didn’t feel like Hank was in control of his emotions when he stalked that prankster in the theatre. I feel Ewing tried to show Pym’s personality defects too early in Hanks career, in this flashback story. I thought Hanks capture and torture was reasonable if 4 villains ganged up on him, and knew how to negate his ant communication ability. It was also reasonable Hank had a back door plan to contact Janet and have her rescue him in the Nick of time. I don’t blame Hanks personality to stalk the kid as blame for his capture either. That’s just how Hank Pym is. But there was something in the slinking off to confront the kid in the theatre that didn’t ring true. I would have just made Hank retrieve his helmet, and get the ants to swarm the kid in his seat. That’s what I thought Hank Pym would do.
    Completely understandable. Pym possibly could've donned his helmet while seated & done what you described.
    But he probably excused himself, because he didn't want to cause a commotion & ruin the cinematic experience for Jan


  15. #225
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I just read the first issue and recognised the Stan Lee writing style, and even some Don Heck artistic style used to immerse the reader into the 1960’s comic experience. I thought it was very well done in that sense.

    Discussing the Hank Pym we see here, I am reminded how much Janet was frustrated with Hanks antics during this period of Hanks personality, in that it was patriarchal towards females. But I never read any notion of Hank having an inferior complex at all right up till he left the Avengers in Avengers #15, much later than when this issue was set. To my mind Hank was self-confident, and didn’t try to punish others to prove anything.

    But this interpretation by Al Ewing made me feel uncomfortable about Hank Pym for some reason. It didn’t feel like Hank was in control of his emotions when he stalked that prankster in the theatre. I feel Ewing tried to show Pym’s personality defects too early in Hanks career, in this flashback story. I thought Hanks capture and torture was reasonable if 4 villains ganged up on him, and knew how to negate his ant communication ability. It was also reasonable Hank had a back door plan to contact Janet and have her rescue him in the Nick of time. I don’t blame Hanks personality to stalk the kid as blame for his capture either. That’s just how Hank Pym is. But there was something in the slinking off to confront the kid in the theatre that didn’t ring true. I would have just made Hank retrieve his helmet, and get the ants to swarm the kid in his seat. That’s what I thought Hank Pym would do.
    If he had put his helmet on in the theatre, the kids would have seen him. If he shrunk in the theatre, the kids would have noticed too. At that point in time, his id was still a secret after all. Following "the kid" to the popcorn stand was more logical to not only not get his secret id revealed, but to tell the ants exactly where he was. It would have been confusing for the ants if Hank had stayed in the theatre and asked them to go find some random kid, especially since he wouldn't know exactly where he was.

    And that kid was Eric O'Grady so... he totally deserved it! LOL
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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