*nods to Cleric* MCU Supersoldiers vs the following groups

[Postmania]

I'm tossing in these guys to the Team MA, does this change things?

Morpheus (The Matrix)
Trinity (The Matrix)
Kham (The Protector)
Chen Zhen (Legend of the Fist): Donnie Yen's foray into being Chen Zhen, feats 1, 2, 3, 4
Junbao and Tien-bo from The Tai Chi Master: Feat
The Coolie and the Tailor from Kung Fu Hustle: Feat excluding the Weapon Master

*posts vigorously about Tang Long*



Fight Scene 01

Versus Final Boss Involves throwing around children.

this film was such a lot of fun.

Oh snap, I think this is one of those films I saw but couldn't remember what it was called to find it again on a rewatch. Man the whole explanation with the X-rays scenes and the boss getting hit by lightning was great

Also this thread was only half about remembering how dope The Witch was again

[Nik Hasta]

Chen Zhen (Legend of the Fist): Donnie Yen's foray into being Chen Zhen, feats 1, 2, 3, 4

I always love how ballistically kinetic this film was. Like Donnie Yen is basically always on wires and moving, it's great fun.

Junbao and Tien-bo from The Tai Chi Master: Feat

Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh? Classic-ass Wuxia? Dudes throwing his own dudes as weapons? Gonna need to watch this one.

Also this thread was only half about remembering how dope The Witch was again

That film was so much fun and also really not how I expected it to go. It does rule.

Still now word on Part 2 though T_T

With regards to the Matrix stuff, do we include Matrix 4 stuff for Trinity? And do we include the soft powerup Morpheus seemed to get between Matrix 1 and 2?

[Postmania]

I always love how ballistically kinetic this film was. Like Donnie Yen is basically always on wires and moving, it's great fun.

It's definitely fast moving, some of which I forgot about.

Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh? Classic-ass Wuxia? Dudes throwing his own dudes as weapons? Gonna need to watch this one.

Oh yeah this movie was wild. Pure silliness but classic iirc.

That film was so much fun and also really not how I expected it to go. It does rule.

Still now word on Part 2 though T_T

I've heard it said they've wrapped filming up, but no idea what happens next :|

With regards to the Matrix stuff, do we include Matrix 4 stuff for Trinity? And do we include the soft powerup Morpheus seemed to get between Matrix 1 and 2?

If we mean her stuff at the end of the movie, that would probably be a bit much. But she can get anything else before that point if there was a difference that I don't remember.

And yeah for Morpheus in M2 although I read his performance in that scene as being more rested/prepared/with room to move IIRC

[Nik Hasta]

And yeah for Morpheus in M2 although I read his performance in that scene as being more rested/prepared/with room to move IIRC

Nah, given that Neo commented that the Agents were upgraded versus the old ones. Then compare how how Morpheus did against an upgraded Agent in Reloaded versus how he did against Smith in the first one.

Morpheus definitely got stronger relative to an Agent in the sequel. Dude started to believe more or whatever.

[Sharpandpointies]

Never seen Tai Chi Master, Nik? If you like Wuxia, it's a classic.

Donnie Yen's Legend of the Fist was fun, if...you know, basically insane. ^_^ Like you say.

[Wat]

@op Coolie kicks your ass! Feet do your stuff. lol.
Seriously considering the stuff he did it shouldn't be a problem to wipe the floor with all the losers.

[hareluyafan1]

Nah, given that Neo commented that the Agents were upgraded versus the old ones. Then compare how how Morpheus did against an upgraded Agent in Reloaded versus how he did against Smith in the first one.

Morpheus definitely got stronger relative to an Agent in the sequel. Dude started to believe more or whatever.

Beg your pardon but that’s not so.

Smith fought Morpheus in a small cramped room that hampered Morpheus’s mobility. The upgrade agent fought him in an open space where he had room to move. Plus Smith fought smart. He knew the environment favoured him and took full advantage by staying close. The upgrades were stupider than the originals. He kept knocking him away and giving him time to regain his bearings.

If you use your imagination you can usually find more fun and interesting explanations than boring old “he got stronger” and this is one of those times. Plus strength isn’t everything.

[Nik Hasta]

Beg your pardon but that’s not so.

Smith fought Morpheus in a small cramped room that hampered Morpheus’s mobility. The upgrade agent fought him in an open space where he had room to move. Plus Smith fought smart. He knew the environment favoured him and took full advantage by staying close. The upgrades were stupider than the originals. He kept knocking him away and giving him time to regain his bearings.

I suggest you actually look at the clips I posted and reconsider.

The Agents in Reloaded were, at the absolute minimum, faster than Smith because when we encounter them, Neo tries to do the same one-handed blocking that he used on Smith at the climax of the previous film and he isn't able to make it work. So, taking the term "upgrades," at it's most basic level, the new Agents are faster than Smith and as strong as him.

Now look at how Morpheus handled being hit by Smith. He got completely rocked and after a few hits was woozy and bleeding and unable to handle the fight. Compare that to how he managed against someone as strong as, if not stronger than, Smith in the sequel. Not only was it a longer fight, he takes more hits that send him flying dozens of feet without suffering anywhere near the same level of damage. This is completely contrary to the "fighting an Agent is suicide unless you're the One," sentiment that the crew operated on during the first film. Morpheus generally holds his own against an Agent, albeit being at a disadvantage the whole time.

Based on the above, we can either assume that the new Agents are weaker than Smith, highly unlikely given that we had a scene specifically establishing that they were more of a challenge to Neo than Smith was, or that Morpheus has gotten stronger between films.

Given that ones' physical capabilities in the Matrix is somewhat subject to belief and self-perception, I can completely imagine that Morpheus, shored by his religious fervor at having found Neo and delivering on the prophecy that is his raison d'etre, became more powerful within the Matrix.

If you use your imagination you can usually find more fun and interesting explanations than boring old “he got stronger” and this is one of those times. Plus strength isn’t everything.

Or you can actually look at the feats in question and comment on what actually happens in the text of the film rather than decrying "this character obviously got more powerful," as "boring,"

[Postmania]

Yeah I'd forgotten all the details involved. I still have some lingering saltiness in that Morpheus in the first film was in the worst possible position to fight an agent lol. In a tiny bathroom with nowhere to go to except into Smith's fists

[hareluyafan1]

I suggest you actually look at the clips I posted and reconsider.

The Agents in Reloaded were, at the absolute minimum, faster than Smith because when we encounter them, Neo tries to do the same one-handed blocking that he used on Smith at the climax of the previous film and he isn't able to make it work. So, taking the term "upgrades," at it's most basic level, the new Agents are faster than Smith and as strong as him.

I suggest you actually look at the clips I posted and reconsider.

The new Agents being faster and as strong as Smith was off-set by them being stupider and poorer tacticians.

Now look at how Morpheus handled being hit by Smith. He got completely rocked and after a few hits was woozy and bleeding and unable to handle the fight. Compare that to how he managed against someone as strong as, if not stronger than, Smith in the sequel. Not only was it a longer fight, he takes more hits that send him flying dozens of feet without suffering anywhere near the same level of damage. This is completely contrary to the "fighting an Agent is suicide unless you're the One," sentiment that the crew operated on during the first film. Morpheus generally holds his own against an Agent, albeit being at a disadvantage the whole time.

Exactly. He was sent flying dozens of feet and that gave him time to clear his head (plus they were out in the open with wind blowing past them, not a dusty, stuffy little room). That's why he fared better.

Based on the above, we can either assume that the new Agents are weaker than Smith, highly unlikely given that we had a scene specifically establishing that they were more of a challenge to Neo than Smith was, or that Morpheus has gotten stronger between films.

Or that the new Agents aren't as smart as Smith and don't fight as smart. Brains over brawn.

Given that ones' physical capabilities in the Matrix is somewhat subject to belief and self-perception, I can completely imagine that Morpheus, shored by his religious fervor at having found Neo and delivering on the prophecy that is his raison d'etre, became more powerful within the Matrix.

That is a fair point.

Or you can actually look at the feats in question and comment on what actually happens in the text of the film rather than decrying "this character obviously got more powerful," as "boring,"

Or you can actually look at the details and put two and two together.

Also yeah, "this character obviously got more powerful," is boring. It's too easy, too obvious. It's much more fun to think of other explanations. It's also common sense. There are tons of factors that can influence the outcome of a battle. Environment is one of them.

Put it this way: "A/A1 always beats B" is dumb and illogical. "B can fare slightly better against A/A1 under the right circumstances" makes for a better story. Besides it's not like Morpheus actually beat the Agent. He still lost and only survived because of aid which then allowed him to make a sneak attack.

[hareluyafan1]

Yeah I'd forgotten all the details involved. I still have some lingering saltiness in that Morpheus in the first film was in the worst possible position to fight an agent lol. In a tiny bathroom with nowhere to go to except into Smith's fists

That's it exactly.

[Nik Hasta]

The assertion, "the air wasn't dusty therefore Morpheus did better in the fight," is such a laughable one, I think I'm going to have to bow out of this thread for fear of being unkind.

Good day to you gentlemen.

[Guy1]

I would also like to point out that Trinity got utterly wrecked by the Upgraded Agent she fought. I know she never fought Smith or the other Agents originally but should we factor that in?

[Postmania]

Not sure what we would get from that that we didn’t already know: She can’t fight agents really.

Also IMO regardless of whether Morpheus’ performance in reloaded was an upgrade or not it seems to me we already were accounting what he was capable of before if I think about it